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Brembo v Tokico calipers

42K views 85 replies 10 participants last post by  2tall2fall 
#1 ·
Just picked up a pair of Brembos off ebay.

Plan is to dissect the calipers and take measurements. Piston sizes, skirt thickness, etc.

Then bolt them on with some dual brake lines. Homemade, I'm afraid. I don't think Earls lists them yet.

Maybe get a radial master cylinder, a Nissin off a zx-14 or something.

Details to follow...
 
#27 · (Edited)
ajax1976 said:
How are your other projects on the bike coming along?

Alan
I'm the master of unfinished projects. :teeth

Fairings front/rear- still need to shoot the final duratec coating on the buck then decide if I want to go through the trouble of making a mold.

Oil cooler relocation- Done. and mounted. Runs leak free. Still need to mount and wire the fan, but for everything but stop and go riding, the oil temp never gets above 180 deg.

Oil pressure/temp gauge- done works great. Nice to know what the oil temp is.

Voltage/coolant temp gauge- voltage was easy, can't find a convenient place to tap into the coolant for temp. So right now it's an ambient air temp gauge.

Tach- Still tempermental running off the diagnostic link. Which means it's useless as a racing tach. I think however that it'll work off coil negative. Should have tried this first.

Race bike ignition/starter switch- done. I taped the spare key to the immobilizer, wrapped it up, stored it in the old battery compartment then rewired the ignition circuit so that a three position switch under the tail starts the engine without a key.

I'm running without the ZFE accessories computer. Which means no lights, horns, instruments, which is OK cause I removed all that. I found the appropriate wires to jump to keep the regulator charging the bike. That was pretty important. Good thing the radiator fan runs off the main ecu.

That's all I can think of right now. If anyone wants details for any of these projects (although I wouldn't know why) let me know...

I'll post pics later...

Edit- Oh yeah, I'm gonna pass on the carbon fiber wheels for now. I've got a lead on some forged magnesium :yeow: ones that weigh LESS THAN the BST's and maybe cost $1000 less as well! These aren't some cheap ass shotty magnesium wheels but true racing wheels that are used by WSBK kawasaki! SWEEEEEEEET! It's not Galespeed. This is not a one off application. It is listed in their catalog and on their website. I hope this pans out. If it does, you'll hear about it here first. And it just demonstrates the highway robbery that is going on with CF wheels.
 
#28 ·
ajax1976 said:
I have been thinking of doing that but adding a radial MC into the mix as well. My biggest gripe is if you loose power you've also lost a large chunk of your braking which scares me a lot!!

Think I've just found my next project!!
I'm very interested in what you and JCW are up to. I would love to bin my servo and get radial m/c and have "normal' brakes again. I really thought I would like the servo/abs option. I think I'm ok with the abs just not the servo thing. Like you I'm used to the feel now but they're not like regular brakes.
 
#29 ·
Tokico calipers, hollow pistons


Nissin piston left, Brembo piston K1200S right


Nissin radial mount. You likey?


Oil cooler relocated


Oil cooler lines and the silly starter switch


Oil pressure sending unit in old oil pressure sensor hole


Temporary mounts for the gauges. UUUGGGGLLLLYYY I know
 
#30 ·
macman said:
I'm very interested in what you and JCW are up to. I would love to bin my servo and get radial m/c and have "normal' brakes again. I really thought I would like the servo/abs option. I think I'm ok with the abs just not the servo thing. Like you I'm used to the feel now but they're not like regular brakes.
I'm certain you can just mount new lines from the stock MC to the stock calipers. Or from a new radial MC to stock calipers.

I would have no clue how to separate the servo from the ABS, though.
 
#31 ·
JCW said:
I'm certain you can just mount new lines from the stock MC to the stock calipers. Or from a new radial MC to stock calipers.

I would have no clue how to separate the servo from the ABS, though.
Yes, that would be the conundrum.
It "seems" that if you mounted a radial m/c to your radial calipers and ran two lines direct it woud be all good. But how do you bypass, as you mentioned the servo/abs and all the fault codes. :dunno:
:popcorn:
 
#32 ·
JCW - nice going!!! :) Very impressed. :)

macman said:
Yes, that would be the conundrum.
It "seems" that if you mounted a radial m/c to your radial calipers and ran two lines direct it woud be all good. But how do you bypass, as you mentioned the servo/abs and all the fault codes. :dunno:
:popcorn:
If you'd get a two "special hoses", one that plugs into the in-to-ABS (from brake lever) and one that plugs into the out-of-ABS (to the calipers) then the ABS would be none the wiser. These special hoses would simply be a stub of hose on one end the banjo-bolt as usual, the other end just sealed off.
Problem: Bleeding. Possible solution: bleeding nipple at the end of the hose.
Potential problem: If the ABS software is cross-linked to the brake light it will trigger an error when the ABS/Servo is not working, but the brake-light-circuit is on.

Now, go on... :D
 
#33 ·
macman said:
Yes, that would be the conundrum.
It "seems" that if you mounted a radial m/c to your radial calipers and ran two lines direct it woud be all good. But how do you bypass, as you mentioned the servo/abs and all the fault codes. :dunno:
:popcorn:
Oh yeah. Forgot about the error codes. Damn.
 
#34 ·
TheJoker said:
JCW - nice going!!! :) Very impressed. :)



If you'd get a two "special hoses", one that plugs into the in-to-ABS (from brake lever) and one that plugs into the out-of-ABS (to the calipers) then the ABS would be none the wiser. These special hoses would simply be a stub of hose on one end the banjo-bolt as usual, the other end just sealed off.
Problem: Bleeding. Possible solution: bleeding nipple at the end of the hose.
Potential problem: If the ABS software is cross-linked to the brake light it will trigger an error when the ABS/Servo is not working, but the brake-light-circuit is on.

Now, go on... :D
You are deekey and sneevious. The whole CAN/BUS brake self test on startup and others might still be issues, but, I could always give it a shot this winter and see.
 
#35 ·
The self test should only figure out whether the system is there and operational. I don't think that it can apply brake pressure and check if the brake pistons are moving. So assuming there's fluid in the system, and it's all connected up, it shouldn't "figure out" that there's no connection between your brake lever and the brake pistons. :dunno:
 
#36 · (Edited)
Finally found a engineering scale drawing of the Brembo racing calipers. Added it to my CAD of the BMW fork and disc...

Sweetness.



A block of AL that size weighs a pound. After I shape it to fit, maybe 0.5 pound each side.
If I knew what I was doing, I'm sure it would be 1/2 pound total.

Anyone have a radial Brembo caliper for sale?
 
#37 ·
Your making progress JC, can't wait to see further developments but do you really think its worth the cost and effort?
I was reading last week an article about common urban myths in biking and radial mounts cropped up. It was said that benefits were exagerated by the big manufacturers to increase sales and the main reason race teams use them is because they are quicker/easier to centre and adjust when changing between different discs/pads for example moto gp bikes changing to iron discs for wet races quickly. I realise your bike's going to be more track orientated than the likes of mine but even then are you going to see any benefit over a decent radial MC and caliper set up?
At the end of the day your still going to be mounting on to a conventional mount which is never going to be as stiff as a fork lower with intergrated radial mounts.
I'm not dishing your ideas or efforts because I really enjoy reading about your work and hope you see the project through and I realise I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know.
Alan
 
#38 · (Edited)
I agree with what you've said and pretty much stated as much in the previous post here.

The reason is that all the new calipers come in radial configuration. They are stiffer and come with more pads which improve initial bite.

I even went through all the different available configurations and ranked them. Here you go...

4 pad, billet, monoblock, Brembo X99.C4.60/61 (108mm 34/34) $1879
4 pad, billet, monoblock, non-Brembo PVM, Harris, AP, etc
2 pad, billet, monoblock, Brembo X97.37.60/61 (108mm 32/36) $1529
2 pad, billet, monoblock, non-Brembo PVM, Harris, AP, etc
4 pad, billet, 2 piece, Brembo none
4 pad, billet, 2 piece, non-Brembo none
2 pad, billet, 2 piece, Brembo 220.A016.10 HP performance calipers (108mm, 2 pin )- $700
2 pad, billet, 2 piece, non-Brembo none

4 pad, cast, monoblock, Brembo none
4 pad, cast, monoblock, non-Brembo none
2 pad, cast, monoblock, Brembo 220.A397.10 Brembo M4 Ducati 1098 (108mm, 2 pin 34/34) $500
2 pad, cast, monoblock, non-Brembo Honda CBR1000RR ‘08 Tokico (108mm), Yamaha R1 ‘06 Sumitomo (108mm)
4 pad, cast, 2 piece, Brembo 20.8343.11/21 Brembo P4 Ducati 848 (100mm 34/34) $300
4 pad, cast, 2 piece, non-Brembo Nissin (108mm 30/30) on Ebay cheap
2 pad, cast, 2 piece, Brembo Stock (65mm 32/36)- $400 Ebay- cheaper?
2 pad, cast, 2 piece, non-Brembo Stock (65mm 32/36)- Tokico

The more I read about the two piece billet Brembo's the less I like them. I'm thinking monoblock may be more important than billet. And I may end up with a 2 pad cast monoblock from Brembo.

As far as mounting, I think the radial mounting refers to the caliper rather than the fork. Many forks mount with the bolts axially like that. The difference is I'm adding a second set of bolts. The Ohlins R&T forks on my zx-10r also have a separate bracket to mount radial calipers.

 
#39 ·
JCW said:
The more I read about the two piece billet Brembo's the less I like them. I'm thinking monoblock may be more important than billet. And I may end up with a 2 pad cast monoblock from Brembo.

As far as mounting, I think the radial mounting refers to the caliper rather than the fork. Many forks mount with the bolts axially like that. The difference is I'm adding a second set of bolts. The Ohlins R&T forks also have a separate bracket to mount radial calipers.



I hear what your saying but are YOU actually going to feel a massive difference between billet, monobloc etc?

With regard to mounts, Radially refers to the way the caliper mounts to the fork. Ohlins brackets are all new fork lowers drilled and tapped radially for radial brackets.Your caliper might be radially mounted but your bracket won't be. I think all the stiffness your looking for in a caliper is going to be lost because your bracket is going to be mounted the same way as a convention caliper.
 
#40 · (Edited)
On the street, between billet and cast, probably not.

On the track, I think so. I've talked to people that have the mods at the track. It manifests as more consistent braking and less or no brake fade.

The 4 pad calipers will provide a greater initial bite that is noticeable on the street.

Didn't we agree that radially mounting doesn't necessarily mean a stiffer mount, though?

The difference will be in the caliper design. Monoblock vs 2 piece. Billet vs cast.

Changing to radial just allows me more options in calipers.

At least that's my thinking.

Either way, as a cast 2-piece 2-pad non-Brembo brake caliper, the stock calipers are on the ground level of brakes. I'm just looking to upgrade as any good bike nut would do. :teeth
 
#41 ·
To be honest JC, I don't have any experience and a limited knowledge on caliper materials and build up with regards to billet etc. I'm only relying on my basic engineering principles.
I've actually came to the conclusion that my issues with the lack of feel might not be all brake related, I've always ridden traditional forks and its only now I'm noticing a difference between them and the hossack set up. Initially I didn't really notice much difference cruising around as it was winter and I was still learning my new bikes ways but 6mths later summers here and I'm starting to push the bike a lot more. I'm still going to have a good look into ditching the servo and possibly the ABS if I have to. To me loosing the servo and a radial mc will pretty much solve all my gripes, I'll just have to get used to the reduced front end feel from the hossacks.
Do you have any specs of the brakes on the race bike in your mag wheels thread?
To me they look like conventionals as I can't see a mounting on the lower half of the caliper but there is some sort of plate between the caliper and fork, maybe discs are larger?
 
#42 ·
I have to agree with you though that convential calipers have seem to be forgotten by the main manufacturers and the choice of radials have over taken the market. I hadn't really looked in to what Brembo, AP etc are making these days.I'll admit I was sort of missing your point that even being able to run a set of radials from a Kawasaki for example would be a big benefit over stock calipers.

Don't suppose you'll be making a few sets of your adapter plates up :) ?
I think I'm going to start at the MC,dump the servo and work my way down, hopefully I won't need calipers but who knows!!

Keep us posted with your developments

Alan
 
#43 · (Edited)
ajax1976 said:
To me loosing the servo and a radial mc will pretty much solve all my gripes,...
I agree 100% And probably would be good for me too with a set of dual brake lines. Don't forget those. :clap:

ajax1976 said:
Do you have any specs of the brakes on the race bike in your mag wheels thread?
To me they look like conventionals as I can't see a mounting on the lower half of the caliper but there is some sort of plate between the caliper and fork, maybe discs are larger?
Good eye. They are conventional mounts but with a 40mm mounting spacing. They look to be the 2 pad billet monoblock brembos. X10.17.40.

http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=X10.17.40


Also, and again good eyes, there is an adapter plate to adapt the 65mm mounts of the BMW fork to 40mm of the Brembo. However, in order to get it to fit like they did, it HAS TO BE a larger disc as well. I have the CAD drawings of the 65 to 40mm adapation and the adapter bolts interfere with the fork with the STOCK 320mm disc. If you went to 330mm, the bolts would clear and look like theirs.

Just for informational purposes in case you needed it
Billet- machined from a solid (assuming higher quality) piece of AL. You can have a two piece billet or a single (monoblock) billet.
Cast- AL heated to melting point and poured into a casting. This too can be two piece cast or a monoblock cast
Monoblock- the entire caliper is one piece vs two halves joined together with bolts. This can be cast or billet. Obviuosly to machine recesses for pistons in a one piece caliper requires special machinery and brembo actually has patented some equipment for this.

As far as making more than one, I'll have to make sure the plans are perfect. The CAD of the caliper is spot on since they are from the factory but the CAD for the forks are from a picture I took and may be susecptible to parallax(?) error. But maybe I could give the dimensions to a machining company to do a small production run.
 
#44 ·
Thanks for the info JC, I can see why the monoblocks are so expensive. I'd love to see how they mill the bores out on them, I think they'll be a bit over kill for me!!

Seriously though I'm going to have to try and figure how to loose the servo before I do anything else, I get the feeling its going to be easier said than done. If I have to sacrifice the ABS system I'll do it. Its definately going to be a winter project for me, try and do some research over the summer though. I'll maybe cast a random eye over Ebay from time to time and see what comes up.

If only it was as simple as bolting these on;


Alan
 
#45 · (Edited)
Those are actually the "affordable" brembos.

Cast 4-pad 2-piece goldline calipers. They are about $600 for the pair. But use 100mm 30mm offset mounting of the Ducatis and other italian bikes.

OEM on aprilias, 99x's.

the 1098, 1098s, 1098R and desmosedici use the monoblock cast caliper. Although I'm pretty sure nearly all the R and desmo owners are replacing them with the billet monoblocks muy pronto.
 
#48 ·
JCW said:
Those are actually the "affordable" brembos.

Cast 4-pad 2-piece goldline calipers. They are about $600 for the pair. But use 100mm 30mm offset mounting of the Ducatis and other italian bikes.

OEM on aprilias, 99x's.

the 1098, 1098s, 1098R and desmosedici use the monoblock cast caliper. Although I'm pretty sure nearly all the R and desmo owners are replacing them with the billet monoblocks muy pronto.

I actually meant the adaptor plates, thats conventional honda sp1(rc51?) forks adapted for radials. A guy in Portugal makes them and sells on ebay in the UK.
 
#49 ·
Oh. :)

Looks a bit like the adapter I'm planning with the radial caliper mount and axial fork mount.

Very nicely made. Looks so good, I thought it was stock. :clap:
 
#50 ·
JCW, this is all very interesting! :) Very! As I happened to purchase a milling machine :wtf: on Friday, this (adapter plate) is one of those projects that have come across my mind (along with rearsets, camera mounts etc).
I had been thinking that mounting radial calipers on might be better as the bolts go in the other way compared to the OEM bolts, henceforth probably making the adapter plate smaller.

BUT... right now, it dawned to me. JCW, why don't you unscrew the forks, buy some "normal" fork-bottoms that fit your choice of calipers, then wobble over to a machining company and kindly ask them to grind the fork-bottoms down to mere caliper mounts, and then grind the OEM holder away and simply TIG weld the radial mounts onto your forks.... Job done! :clap: :clap:
 
#51 ·
TheJoker said:
JCW, this is all very interesting! :) Very! As I happened to purchase a milling machine :wtf: on Friday, this (adapter plate) is one of those projects that have come across my mind (along with rearsets, camera mounts etc).
I had been thinking that mounting radial calipers on might be better as the bolts go in the other way compared to the OEM bolts, henceforth probably making the adapter plate smaller.

BUT... right now, it dawned to me. JCW, why don't you unscrew the forks, buy some "normal" fork-bottoms that fit your choice of calipers, then wobble over to a machining company and kindly ask them to grind the fork-bottoms down to mere caliper mounts, and then grind the OEM holder away and simply TIG weld the radial mounts onto your forks.... Job done! :clap: :clap:
Or redesign the aluminum carrier in carbon fiber. :thumb:



I'm primarily worried about welding cast aluminum. It's not suppose to weld very well. But it would be nice. Ohlins actually sell the adpater plates that are separate from the fork and bottom.
 
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