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Skinny on the Cam chain guard

114K views 247 replies 57 participants last post by  DougM 
#1 ·
Ok so the newer style tensioner is old news by now, so if ya haven't yet its time to get that done, both old and new are hydrolic but the new has holes in the mounting plate and the cap that bolts where the old plate did acts as a reservior. The deal with the "chaintooth jump guard", is pretty simple, remove clutch/crankend cover and it snaps into place over the existing guard casted into the case then held in place with the cover, adding additional protection to keep the chain from skipping a tooth should something cause it to. I should have done all of this myself, but the other day on the phone with the dealer this was new as of last month and the service bulletin was not all that clear as to what held the guard in place so I opted to pay and watch this time, education comes with a tuition price and this one was about two and a half hrs. shop time on the first go, but its only about an hour and a half job, this guy is a clean freak, after finishing he was back there with a can of cleaner in one hand and a fresh micro-fiber cloth in the other removeing any trace he'd been there. They did it on saturday, a good job while I waited so I paid cash and thanked them. The parts, gastet, tensioner kit, guard and one time screws etc. run about two bills plus labor, 400 dallars for the peace of mind that I've done all that can be to this point to prevent cam chain/related failures.
 
#28 ·
eng943 said:
For those with lower mileage bikes, it would seem as though doing this preventative measure would make the most sense at the 18K valve check?
There's not much labor overlap between the two jobs so no real reason in particular to combine the two, unless you are having a dealer do it and would rather not make two trips. Beyond that consideration, and even though the odds of a cam chain-related problem is probably pretty low on any given bike, I would see this as a 'sooner the better' type of mod.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Robert_W said:
Mack, did you actually count these screws up? I have the RepRom open now and while it gives me size and torque values it doesn't give me the amount of each. In fact from the RepRom it looks like it needs 18 screws total? But it doesn't tell me how many short or long. I just looked at the bike and I'm going to need to rip off the tupperware to get an exact count but still don't know how many long or short without removing the cover itself. And you have 20 listed? :confused:
The RepROM pic seems to specifically label two bolts as M6x20, which seems to imply that two of the 18 are M6x20 and the rest are M6x25... but I don't know that for sure. Also what about the 4 bolts for the clutch slave cylinder? The RepROM clearly states that the clutch cover bolts are not reusable but doesn't make a similar statement about the slave cylinder mounting bolts. Do these need to be replaced as well?

Anyone with certain info would sure win some Brownie points right about now...


Edit: I just went and looked and the slave cylinder bolts have exactly the same markings as the housing cover bolts so they appear to be the same part, so I'd assume that they should be replaced as well. That makes a total of 16 of the M6x25 and 6 of the M6x20, by my count.
 
#30 ·
You know, I think you're right about the slave cylinder......so for a buck eighty a piece I think I'm just going to order several extra and replace them all to be safe. Even if I end up with a couple of extras at this point a few bucks of extra screws is chump change! :)
 
#31 ·
Yeah, not sure. Looking at the torque specs it appears that the housing bolts are torqued much higher (3 nm + 90 degrees) than the slave cylinder bolts (5 nm total) so maybe that's why they don't specify replacement of the slave cylinder bolts. But as you say, cheap insurance...
 
#32 ·


Max BMW Online Parts shows 17 of the M6x25 screws (11137676132 & #3 above) and a total of 3 of the M6x20 screws (11147678478 & #4 & #6). One of the shorter M6x20 goes at the very front of the cover, and the other two go on the Heat Protection shield (which may not have to be removed so maybe minus two of those or just reuse those two?) for the original 17 M6x25 and only 1 of the M6x20 for the main cover.

Question arises as to the gasket number (part #2 above). Appears there are two right side covers and two different part numbers on the Max Site for the covers and two for the gasket also (one was superseded). Hopefully, part number 11267727974 Gasket $25.43 (the newest) will work for both but I don't know? Be a shame if the damn new cover takes a new gasket and you cannot get the gasket for the older covers, so you buy a new $340 aluminum cover for a new gasket? Dunno.

The slave cylinder may not have to be removed to do this job. So you might leave another batch of M6x20 screws (4 of them which would add up to 7 in total if you remove it) alone and just hang the cover off to the side on a bungee (The clutch slave is shown on another parts page).

Issue becomes if your dealer even stocks the screws needed. Mine had zero and no gasket and no new chain piece either. I could see this job sitting in some shop a long time if the warehouse has a run on these screws and the dealer runs out and back orders them.


Mack
 
#33 ·
Robert_W said:
Seriously! :wtf: Am I just not getting the sarcasm here? :confused:

Not to be Mr. Negativity....again (sorry)...but this just speaks volumes to all the skeptics out there that have poo pooded `those of us that have all along said that there are MANY of these engines flying apart. Who knows how many? BMW knows it, but they obviously want to keep it as hush hush as possible. It's also obvious that there had to be enough for it to be a problem and concern.....otherwise no cam chain guard or tensioner for that matter. The lawyers and bean counters at the mother ship did the math and now they're doing what they can to put band aids on it. They know that sooner or later there's real potential for these things to come back and bite them in the ass.

Hopefully, and I for one welcome the fix, this will keep at least a few guys from cratering their machines....and better yet for the selfish side of me....I might actually get a decent amount of mileage out of a machine that's cost me boat loads of cash! If this really is a fix it sure will put a lot of minds to ease.

Time will tell.
Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic, although I can see how you might interpret it that way.

I am confused because producing the cam chain guard is a tacit admission that there is a problem with cam chain skipping.

If there is no problem, why go through all that work to create and sell the part? That doesn't make any sense to me.

If there is a problem, why is there no recall or service advisory?
 
#34 ·
Recognizing a problem internally and coming up with a solution which is then integrated into normal production is a whole lot different than admitting it publicly. The former is just good engineering, while the latter opens you up not only to excessive costs, but also all sorts of liability and litigation.

I'm not saying that's the right way of handling things, but it happens much more often than you think.
 
#35 ·
Meese said:
Recognizing a problem internally and coming up with a solution which is then integrated into normal production is a whole lot different than admitting it publicly. The former is just good engineering, while the latter opens you up not only to excessive costs, but also all sorts of liability and litigation.

I'm not saying that's the right way of handling things, but it happens much more often than you think.
Are you suggesting that the part is integrated into production of any K13's (I doubt any K1300GTs got it) or perhaps the new K16 models?
 
#36 ·
Obviously I have no facts here and no direct connection to BMW, so it's just educated speculation from an engineer who has dealt with these sorts of inline upgrades for years.

Combine German engineering arrogance with American litigation excesses and there's no way in hell they'll ever publicly admit to anything that they aren't required to by law. That's pretty much how all modern manufacturing and engineering corporations work.

But they will work the problems in the background and incorporate any solutions quietly into production, and possibly even "goodwill" a few customer cases, especially if they're looking for failed models to draw conclusions from.

As for this particular case, I'm not sure if this part ever made it into any of the GT production bikes, as that line is now finished. I'd guess that it would get incorporated into any other Slant/4 production, like the K13S bikes that are still being built.

As for the Slant/6, that is a similar but distinctly different engine. My educated guess is that lessons learned from the Slant/4 failures were incorporated into the Slant/6's design. So there may be a similar lower cam chain guard, or maybe they redesigned the lower cam chain drive altogether to eliminate that problem.

The only way to know for sure is to pull the clutch cover off a recent build K13S, or to open up a K16 once those bikes become available.

Any volunteers? :D
 
#37 · (Edited)
Just got off the phone with A&S Cycle in Sacramento.

$86.10 for everything. Gaurd, Screws, Gasket.

I ordered 20 - M6X25
and 4 - M6X20

Just to be safe. Guy said I only needed 17 and 1 but.....then there was a double check moment. So for a few extra bucks I have a couple of extra screws. No biggie.

They said to use a bit of Clear RTV Silicone gasket seal too. This stuff. Any one ever used this stuff? :confused:

As of this writing they have 17 Cam Chain Jump guards in stock. They were also quite familiar with it already so there's plenty of guys doing this. So much so that the screws are on back order for a couple of days. However there are apparently 100's of those already on back order as so many are doing this "fix". I should have everything within a week.

Any how if your dealer doesn't have the stuff a 5 minute call or email to these folks solves your problems. Easy beans.
 
#38 ·
If the chain jumping the lower sprocket is really the primary issue behind the valve train failures then that is really good news in that failure mode is easily preventable, vs. practically unaddressable if the problem had been related to an inherent weakness in the top end design. If this fix proves effective I don't care who admits what, I'm just glad that a solution was found.

Now we just have to wait and see if upgraded bikes continue to exhibit the failure. Needless to say, a lot of fingers are being crossed...
 
#39 ·
Robert_W said:
Just got off the phone with A&S Cycle in Sacramento.

$86.10 for everything. Gaurd, Screws, Gasket.

I ordered 20 - M6X25
and 4 - M6X20

Just to be safe. Guy said I only needed 17 and 1 but.....then there was a double check moment. So for a few extra bucks I have a couple of extra screws. No biggie.

They said to use a bit of Clear RTV Silicone gasket seal too. This stuff. Any one ever used this stuff? :confused:

As of this writing they have 17 Cam Chain Jump guards in stock. They were also quite familiar with it already so there's plenty of guys doing this. So much so that the screws are on back order for a couple of days. However there are apparently 100's of those already on back order as so many are doing this "fix". I should have everything within a week.

Any how if your dealer doesn't have the stuff a 5 minute call or email to these folks solves your problems. Easy beans.
So what was your gasket part number? I'm wondering as mine has to be the older style cover (2006 K1200GT when they first appeared) and they don't show that number anymore except for the newer style cover and gasket which is another $324 beans. If that's the case, I'll reuse the gasket and use a gallon of sealant.

I'll probably use the Permatex BLACK stuff since the engine is black (sort of) and it's rated to 500 degrees vs. the clear stuff mentioned by A&S which is only 400 degrees. Permatex Black Sealant

I'll keep riding the S1000RR until someone mentions how this job unfolds. I figured there would be a back-order for screws for this thing. I'm still pondering if the case cover screws need to be replaced at all. I don't think they are pure "Torque-to-Yield" screws (TTY) but just "Torque-Angle-Turn" (TAT) which can be reused maybe 4 times as on valve covers.

Mack
 
#40 ·
Still speculation at this point because I haven't received my parts yet, but I'll be very surprised if the new part number gasket doesn't fit the old cases. There's no new part number listed on the engine case the clutch cover bolts to and I've read of several bikes being opened up for clutch problems and no one has mentioned having to buy an updated clutch cover because they weren't able to get the right gasket.

My parts have shipped but it'll be Monday when they arrive and I'll be gone all next week so it will be a while before I can get my guard installed.
 
#41 ·
Mack.....as per my order:

The following products will be shipped to the address below:

1. Quantity: 1 11318526932
CHAIN TOOTH-JUMP GUARD

Price: $6.70

2. Quantity: 1 11147727974
GASKET

Price: $25.43

3. Quantity: 20 11137676132
ISA SCREW

Price: $1.80

4. Quantity: 4 11147678478
ISA SCREW

Price: $2.00


Thanks on the black goop. ;) I should have everything next week. As long as it stays some what warm here I'll do it as soon as I get the parts.
 
#43 ·
Mark, the tensioner is a totally separate part(s) and there is a service bulletin for it. Your dealer should do it under warranty. Just tell them your bike has been making noise at start up like a box of rocks rattling. Also be fair warned that if your machine has over 12k miles then BMW doesn't recommend the fix. (It's BS and too much to go into here but that's their infinite wisdom.) Fix it any way.

Service Bulletin here:

Service Bulletin # 1100208 (034) RR

http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12409
http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12408

Do a search here for "tensioner service bulletin" there's tons of info on it.

If you're going to do it yourself go here for part #'s:

http://www.ascycles.com/Illustrated_catalog2/MicroList.aspx?id=51588&catID=11&catname=11+Engine

Scroll down....Click on the "CAMSHAFT, CAMSHAFT GEAR, TIMING CHAIN "

You want parts 10, 11, 12 and 16. Should come as a set with some new O'rings. Just give them a call they will know. It's a very easy install. Just don't try to turn the engine on with it removed! ;)
 
#45 · (Edited)
This has me a little worried.
I just bought an '08 GT and I have no idea if this fix has been implemented. Although the dealer told me it is "up to date" on all recalls, but I don't know about TSB's. Is there an easy way to identify if this has been done?
The bike has only 1200 miles on it. It sounds great, no weird noises...

EDIT:
My bad, it looks like this was corrected in production prior to my '08 being built. Sorry!
 
#46 ·
GMack said:
So what was your gasket part number? I'm wondering as mine has to be the older style cover (2006 K1200GT when they first appeared) and they don't show that number anymore except for the newer style cover and gasket which is another $324 beans.
Every now and then BMW changes partnumber, as in this case. Probably (I don't know this for a fact, just en educated guess) there have been made minor improvements to the gasket, and the new one then needs a new partnumber.

If you order the 'wrong' number you will get the other one anyway, as the 'old' one is probably discontinued.

This is no big deal, just the way BMW does it, (and probably other companys too).
 
#47 ·
robday said:
This has me a little worried.
I just bought an '08 GT and I have no idea if this fix has been implemented. Although the dealer told me it is "up to date" on all recalls, but I don't know about TSB's. Is there an easy way to identify if this has been done?
The bike has only 1200 miles on it. It sounds great, no weird noises...

EDIT:
My bad, it looks like this was corrected in production prior to my '08 being built. Sorry!
Only the tensioners have been standard on the newer machines. Unless you have secret gremlins working on your bike then I would be 99.999% certain that you do NOT have the new cam chain guard. It just came out in the last 2 or 3 weeks.
 
#48 ·
Robert_W said:
Only the tensioners have been standard on the newer machines. Unless you have secret gremlins working on your bike then I would be 99.999% certain that you do NOT have the new cam chain guard. It just came out in the last 2 or 3 weeks.
Well, when I bought the bike I checked the box that said, "do you want the secret gremlin option?" :D (I wish)

Ok, so now the question is, if I'm not hearing any odd noise at startup, should I still be concerned about this issue? As mentioned, I've only got 1200-1300 miles on the bike. My factory warranty is good through May of this year, and I (wisely) purchased a 3 year extended warranty when I bought it. And if the fix is only a few weeks old, then it was not available at the time of purchase, so I won't hold the dealer responsible for something that wasn't done. If this isn't covered under either warranty, or under goodwill, I have no problem doing it myself either.
I'm always open to advice from those that know better than me.
Thanks for the details, I truly appreciate it.
 
#49 ·
The odds of any given bike experiencing a valve timing error is probably small, but it is demonstrably not zero and if it happens the engine will sustain severe damage. If this $80 fix really is a fix then it seems like very cost-effective insurance to me. I would do it even if I had a service contract since to me an engine that never self-destructed is a helluva lot better than one that was rebuilt, even for free.
 
#50 ·
Meese said:
Recognizing a problem internally and coming up with a solution which is then integrated into normal production is a whole lot different than admitting it publicly. The former is just good engineering, while the latter opens you up not only to excessive costs, but also all sorts of liability and litigation.

I'm not saying that's the right way of handling things, but it happens much more often than you think.

The mere fact that BMW has engineered a new part designed specifically to keep the timing chain from jumping a tooth, and crashing the valvetrain is an admission of a design flaw in the original engineering. I'm not paying out of pocket to install this part, and if and when my chain jumps BMW will either pay for the entire repair or find themselves in a lawsuit with their newly designed part as my star witness.
 
#51 ·
2008-K1200GT said:
The mere fact that BMW has engineered a new part designed specifically to keep the timing chain from jumping a tooth, and crashing the valvetrain is an admission of a design flaw in the original engineering. I'm not paying out of pocket to install this part, and if and when my chain jumps BMW will either pay for the entire repair of find themselves in a lawsuit with their newly designed part as my star witness.
I have a S1000RR (fun bike!). When I bought it new, I had the dealer install the optional Drop Sensor "Just in case" since I seem to have issues with my GT always falling over or someone doing it for me and costing a pile of money to make pristine again. Just seemed like a good thing to do at the time.

Fast forward...

BMW Mothership decides the $149 optional Drop Sensor should come as "Standard Equipment" with the bike about 6 months after I bought mine with the already attached Drop Sensor I paid for. Some bikes that fell down on the left side got oil into the cylinder and hydro-locked and bent and snapped connecting rods and assorted bad stuff from falling over with the engine running on the left side. Hence, the sensor is standard equipment now along with some fancy bent crankcase vent hose recall to prevent oil from draining in that fashion.

Dealer called and issued me a ~$160 (inc. sales tax) credit on the sensor (I'll get a new tire out of it) since I already had it installed. So they may operate in the same fashion with this "Chain Jump Guard" thing too - maybe.

Personally, it does not seem to be that big of an install issue other than a bit messy and a bit of face time with the engine. For $80 in parts, I'd rather get it done now than to have the misfortune of the engine blowing chunks down the road and dealing with that issue or litigation. Could end up in Robert's shoes somewhere out in East Jesus and I doubt if BMW will cover all your expenses if the thing does blow chunks of metal someplace.

If I recall, the chain tensioner on the bike came first with the spring (1st design.), then they added a spacer or two to that original design (2nd), then they came out with the hydraulic one (3rd). Seems that sloppy chain has been there a while and this is an aid (4th) to the sloppiness of the chain.


Mack
 
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