Ok so the newer style tensioner is old news by now, so if ya haven't yet its time to get that done, both old and new are hydrolic but the new has holes in the mounting plate and the cap that bolts where the old plate did acts as a reservior. The deal with the "chaintooth jump guard", is pretty simple, remove clutch/crankend cover and it snaps into place over the existing guard casted into the case then held in place with the cover, adding additional protection to keep the chain from skipping a tooth should something cause it to. I should have done all of this myself, but the other day on the phone with the dealer this was new as of last month and the service bulletin was not all that clear as to what held the guard in place so I opted to pay and watch this time, education comes with a tuition price and this one was about two and a half hrs. shop time on the first go, but its only about an hour and a half job, this guy is a clean freak, after finishing he was back there with a can of cleaner in one hand and a fresh micro-fiber cloth in the other removeing any trace he'd been there. They did it on saturday, a good job while I waited so I paid cash and thanked them. The parts, gastet, tensioner kit, guard and one time screws etc. run about two bills plus labor, 400 dallars for the peace of mind that I've done all that can be to this point to prevent cam chain/related failures.
The mere fact that BMW has engineered a new part designed specifically to keep the timing chain from jumping a tooth, and crashing the valvetrain is an admission of a design flaw in the original engineering. I'm not paying out of pocket to install this part, and if and when my chain jumps BMW will either pay for the entire repair or find themselves in a lawsuit with their newly designed part as my star witness.
Appears most other sportbikes come with one as a precautionary and engine saving feature. I think the Gold Wing even has one as I believe they were a bit touchy in operation when the big beasts were leaned over and would cut out.
Speculation was that BMW may have left it off the first run to hold the costs down. Seems some were blowing the engine cases with pictures of con rods sticking out of them so they made the recall to have the drop sensor installed along with a specially bent hose that keeps the crankcase oil from draining up into the head when it flops on the left side. The hose has a J-bend in it and it actually goes over to the right side and then loops back to the left side so oil cannot flow down and into the cylinders as easily. I installed the $35 hose myself rather than waiting for some shop time locally that would take 3-4 weeks as they would need to get the bike, order the hose, and then put it on. Sometimes you just gotta pay for your own warranty fix in terms of labor unless you want to be without it for a while since my local dealer is really the pits on carrying any warranty parts and seems "everything gets ordered." Ugh!
Least they jumped on the two pieces pretty quick and it has quieted down a bit now on hydrolocked engines. I'm waiting to see what becomes of the K1600GT when it gets dumped on the side. Should be mandatory they test them for those conditions. Polaris did it with the Victory and it incurs little damage on a drop. I've seen enough dropped Harleys to know they incur little damage as they have pretty substantial crash-bars to the frame. The K1600GT engine crash-bar attached to their lightened (and maybe subsequent thin-walled engine case?) engine sort of bothers me. Time will tell, and I'm not willing to be a beta tester on that one.
They also changed the S1000RR crankshaft design around mid-June last year. Here's the two cranks used:
Makes one wonder doesn't it? I suspect the larger circular flywheel-like mass of the upper one (the newest design) is to dampen the vibes that some experience on the bars, but who knows? It adds about 500 grams to the older crank shown at the bottom. I would think it slows down the spin-up for a race bike so it seems counterproductive. Dunno. Fwiw, I got the old one so if it blows chunks, I'll let you know. honecall
Robert I recall all the problems you had when your bike ate the valve train. What was the final outcome with that, and how did BMW compensate you. As far as scoffing at the idea of a lawsuit did you try suing BMW? I would do it in a heartbeat, plenty of information on this board alone to support the conclusion that the engineering behind the valve train is flawed. BMW like all big corporations counts on the little guy just sucking it up, well win or loose I wouldn't. If I had the issues you did I would definitely see them in a court room, or more likely they would settle.
To be fair I need to mention I would have free access to several attorney's whom I have worked with over many years. Bottom line is I don't think it would be a stretch for a product liability attorney to take this case on free of charge. A small amount of investigation on his part would show that BMW has exposure here with this timing chain, they know it as evidenced by the valve train collisions we have witnessed here, and the engineer and manufacture of another part to keep the chain from jumping a tooth. This is a virtual no brainer to any juror with zero mechanical knowledge. A class action suit would be worth millions to an aggressive attorney who could easily get a judge to order BMW to pay his legal fees. Just as an aside has anyone here considered why BMW has decided to build a K1600 with a six cylinder engine? Do they know something we don't? The only bike left with a wedge engine is the S, and I'm betting that changes soon with a six cylinder S on the way. So how many years did BMW get out of the 4 cyl wedge 2007-2011 not much at all if you ask me, looks like they want to cut away from this engine design. Soon they will feel safe the wedge warranties will expire.
I will tell you first hand that bmw will fight to the death lawsuits, even when one is represented by nationally known attorneys. They may try to settle out for a few hundred bucks but wiil go to the mat if the case proceeds. If you can find a contingency attorney to take your case you likely will pay for court costs and expert witnesses. Bmw knows the can of worms opened with a precedent. And they have staff attorneys and processes well established to fend off challenges from its customers.in a way I don't blame them because of frivilous claims but they are slow to take responsibility when real and sometimes dangerous problems emerge.
I suspect the 6 cylinder 1600 is just something to try and get in on the 1837cc Gold Wing territory and the Harley 110ci (1803cc) CVO series, and maybe a bit smoother as well. They could have easily kept the 4 banger 1200cc out of the older LT, but it was due for an update anyway. The 6-1600 would be an easy jump to the 6-1800 GW engine as well should Honda do something like throw a 2000cc w/automatic into the mix in a year or two. The drop to about 1/2 wattage output of the alternator on the 6-1600 is a big plus for the HP power gain, but you lose too if you are electrically gear oriented.
I don't think they will go to a 6 cylinder on the S1000RR unless all GT racing competition moves that way and I doubt any of the other liter bike manufacturers would do it as it will gain too much weight. They may try and push more MPG out of the 2 & 4 cylinder engines, and more cylinders may preclude them from doing it too.
Since BMW is tech driven, I would expect their next creation would be some sort of "Green" hybrid/electric thing like the Toyota Prius. Far less maintenance too (like ripping apart the engine for some $700 valve adjustments) and not so parts prone on mishaps like falling over at a pump island or auguring into the ground on cheap asphalt ensuing $3,000+ in plastic panel work, or $4,500+ with the pipe which is absurd. I could see them going to some fly-by-wire steering too just to obliterate any bar vibes.
I've been wondering about their move to a water-cooled boxer too. More weight, more maintenance, more $$$ parts, more stuff to leak, and more to go wrong. Then people will complain "It's running too hot!" or "It boils over and I can't refill it without some special coolant-bleeding tools!" If Harley had done that with their $42K CVO's they might not sell any as in "Sheer heresy!"
Yeah....I'm just yanking his chain. My parts are already on the way for this fix. Should have it done this week.
2008-K1200GT said:
Robert I recall all the problems you had when your bike ate the valve train. What was the final outcome with that, and how did BMW compensate you. As far as scoffing at the idea of a lawsuit did you try suing BMW? I would do it in a heartbeat, plenty of information on this board alone to support the conclusion that the engineering behind the valve train is flawed. BMW like all big corporations counts on the little guy just sucking it up, well win or loose I wouldn't. If I had the issues you did I would definitely see them in a court room, or more likely they would settle.
To be fair I need to mention I would have free access to several attorney's whom I have worked with over many years. Bottom line is I don't think it would be a stretch for a product liability attorney to take this case on free of charge. A small amount of investigation on his part would show that BMW has exposure here with this timing chain, they know it as evidenced by the valve train collisions we have witnessed here, and the engineer and manufacture of another part to keep the chain from jumping a tooth. This is a virtual no brainer to any juror with zero mechanical knowledge. A class action suit would be worth millions to an aggressive attorney who could easily get a judge to order BMW to pay his legal fees. Just as an aside has anyone here considered why BMW has decided to build a K1600 with a six cylinder engine? Do they know something we don't? The only bike left with a wedge engine is the S, and I'm betting that changes soon with a six cylinder S on the way. So how many years did BMW get out of the 4 cyl wedge 2007-2011 not much at all if you ask me, looks like they want to cut away from this engine design. Soon they will feel safe the wedge warranties will expire.
You're preaching to the choir man! And you're singing songs that I did for a while. Still do to some extent. Hence me saying if you find some one good, let me know. You get a class action going with some ambulance chasing guru...I'm in if he's doing it pro bono. If it screws BMW and doesn't cost me big bucks....no problem.
Some guys here have been in litigation with BMW and at least won a new bike or covered their costs out of the deal. With the attorneys that I spoke to and have access to in my rural area none wanted anything to do with it unless of course I was willing to pony up a lot of cash up front.
I pursed this all with some vigor for a while. I HATE the company with a passion.. (Love the bike though when it runs.)...and wish nothing but ill will on most everyone I ever dealt with in their organization.
But the bottom line for me was that at the time I was fighting a lone battle and the end result wasn't going to be worth the toll it would take. There was just way too much time and negative energy being spent on my part and life's too short.
BMW knows this, and as has been mentioned they have teams of attorneys on staff willing to draw things out for years. They have deep pockets and I don't.
So for me it was spend the cash, fix the bike, and ride it. Either that or fight it and be miserable. I'd rather ride.
So if you can pull something out of a hat for free....GO FOR IT!
BTW....my final cost on just that one issue was approx $8600. All tolled I've got roughly $10-12k more in fixes / extended warranty after the fact...on this machine and BMW never did a thing other than blow me off and treat me like shit. They NEVER gave a rats ass.
And I'm not scoffing at the idea....I'm laughing at the irony!
Got my stuff in today (from Max BMW) and the chain guard is... plastic??? I guess what do I expect for 6 bucks but it sure doesn't look like anything very substantial. Whatever, if it does the job I'm happy...
Got my stuff in today (from Max BMW) and the chain guard is... plastic??? I guess what do I expect for 6 bucks but it sure doesn't look like anything very substantial. Whatever, if it does the job I'm happy...
No way...plastic? Seriously? Like the same stuff that the guides are made of? Wow. Not instilling a whole lot O' confidence. :wtf: But par for the course I guess!
I'm still waiting on back order screws. Should have ordered from Max's I guess.
Got my stuff in today (from Max BMW) and the chain guard is... plastic??? I guess what do I expect for 6 bucks but it sure doesn't look like anything very substantial. Whatever, if it does the job I'm happy...
That isn't a problem really given the scope of what this part is doing. You might be surprised to know how much plastic is used in engines without any durability issues.
However, there are some that will hold it against BMW for not building this out of pure Titanium
No, not nearly as strong as the plastic in the guides. :wtf: Just el cheapo plastic, you could snap it in half easily with your bare hands. But I'm in there now and as was posted above, seems like it will do the job. Will post a report after I'm done.
Got my stuff in today (from Max BMW) and the chain guard is... plastic??? I guess what do I expect for 6 bucks but it sure doesn't look like anything very substantial. Whatever, if it does the job I'm happy...
Well it is done. Really about as easy could be, nothing to it. The only thing worth mentioning is that those aluminum screws sure have a funky feel to them. I have been wrenching a while and have a pretty good 'torque wrench wrist' but I just couldn't feel what those things were doing at all. Luckily I have an official Snap On deca-newton-meter torque wrench (borrowed from work of course, who would actually own such a thing) and a real torque-to-yield gauge calibrated in degrees so I just followed the instructions and no drama. I'm sure common tools will suffice but you might want to leave your Harbor Freight torque wrench in the drawer for this one. And BTW I can verify that you will need 17 of the M6X25 and one of the M6X20.
I inspected the lower cam chain drive sprocket and it looked perfect, no signs of any wear on the teeth (bike went about 20k miles with the old tensioner and then had the upgraded unit installed, now has 33k on it.) Also I couldn't see any hint of abnormal wear on the clutch basket, at least as much as was visible. The oil pump drive chain was taut on one side but kind of loose on the other, not sure if that is right or wrong but since adjustment requires special tools and pulling the clutch there was no way I was going that far without good reason, home mechanics should be like doctors... 'above all, do no harm.'
The cam chain itself is a multi-plate affair and looks very stout BTW, I can't see it breaking or wearing or being the cause of any problems. I will note that there was a lot of slop in the chain with the hydraulic tensioner off-line and think BMW's explanation that chain whipping could cause the chain to jump the lower sprocket seems quite plausible, and if that happened it is also easy to believe that the next weakest point would be the upper sprocket and/or sprocket mounting bolts if the engine were to get out-of-time and freeze up. The new part, while not very substantial, does seem up to the task of preventing the chain from slipping the lower sprocket.
Well that's it, a very straightforward job and no more than an hour's work. Now at least I can believe that I have addressed the 'top end' weakness, for a while maybe...
P.S. I ended up with a gasket I don't need (p/n 11147727974, still in the original sealed bag) so if anyone wants it at 25% off (that would be $19, shipped) give me a PM. Such a deal.
......Well that's it, a very straightforward job and no more than an hour's work. Now at least I can believe that I have addressed the 'top end' weakness, for a while maybe...
P.S. I ended up with a gasket I don't need (p/n 11147727974, still in the original sealed bag) so if anyone wants it at 25% off (that would be $19, shipped) give me a PM. Such a deal.
Not in my case it seemed. The OEM gasket was a silcone-coated metal affair and seemed to be in pristine condition. I didn't use any sealer as it didn't seem necessary, in fact even detrimental, with this type of gasket. Of course I may change my mind regarding any of the above if it leaks , but I don't expect that it will.
And yes, we're talking simple plastic for the guard, nothing more exotic than that.
All right you guys are scaring me. I've got 61K on my '06 and it's been rattling like a box of rocks for a while now - especially if I have to let it sit for an extended period, say 3 days. Daily use doesn't seem to be that bad.
I had it in for the 60K service back in Dec and the dealer never said anything about the startup rattle, but then I don't trust this dealer and would totally expect them to say "they all do that".
I haven't done anything to the clutch yet either. It'll squawk sometimes, but it hasn't started slipping yet.
So, if I were to do the cam chain guard and all that, how much more do I have to do to fix the squawking clutch whilst I'm in there?
Man, I wish Grif was still around here. I could sure use his mechanical expertise on this...........
All right you guys are scaring me. I've got 61K on my '06 and it's been rattling like a box of rocks for a while now - especially if I have to let it sit for an extended period, say 3 days. Daily use doesn't seem to be that bad.
I had it in for the 60K service back in Dec and the dealer never said anything about the startup rattle, but then I don't trust this dealer and would totally expect them to say "they all do that".
I haven't done anything to the clutch yet either. It'll squawk sometimes, but it hasn't started slipping yet.
So, if I were to do the cam chain guard and all that, how much more do I have to do to fix the squawking clutch whilst I'm in there?
Man, I wish Grif was still around here. I could sure use his mechanical expertise on this...........
If you haven't addressed any of it you REALLY should do the whole thing....Especially if it's rattling bad. Tensioner, cam chain guard, check and re-torque / loctite the bolts on the sprocket....might as well do the valves too since you'll need to remove the cover to do the sprocket. A new clutch will run you about 900 bucks plus labor. Also check the tension on the oil pump chain while you're in there.
Seriously....don't keep playing roulette. If it's sounds like a box of rocks then it's just a matter of time. Minor inconvenience now or major troubles later.
I think he means rattling just on start-up, as was common with the old-style tensioner. In that case I'd install the new tensioner and the anti-jump guard, just a short afternoon's work. Regarding the clutch, given the expense of replacement and if it is just making some occasional noise and not slipping, I'd wait until it needed real work (as in actually starting to slip.) But that may yet be a long way off.
If OTOH you hear the rattle all of the time then yikes... fix it right now, or risk losing the engine.
I think he means rattling just on start-up, as was common with the old-style tensioner. In that case I'd install the new tensioner and the anti-jump guard, just a short afternoon's work. Regarding the clutch, given the expense of replacement and if it is just making some occasional noise and not slipping, I'd wait until it needed real work (as in actually starting to slip.) But that may yet be a long way off.
If OTOH you hear the rattle all of the time then yikes... fix it right now, or risk losing the engine.
Yeah, the clutch can wait and has nothing to do with the rattle at start up. Sorry...my fault...should have more specific. But while one is in there if you're going to do it anyway....well....why not.
However, since we still will never know for sure what exactly breaks first.....(chicken or egg thing)....chain jumps lower sprocket or bolts on bigger upper sprocket break from box O'rocks rattle and crater the machine or both....then I highly think it's worth the time and effort to check the bolts on the upper sprocket too. Do it all. Especially if it's been rattling bad. Kind of a pain in the ass to do but not nearly the pain that could be a cratered engine.
Gotta say though. I find the irony of this whole thing amazing. For all of us that have gone through the hell of a blown machine, fighting BMW, down time, etc etc.......and now a 6 dollar part MIGHT have kept it all from happening in the first place! Yippee Ki Ya Mo Fo! :rotf:
It's going to be real interesting to see how many of us can now go 100k plus with no major problems. We should start a pool.
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