War on Terror: Seriously.... - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 2007, 10:26 am Thread Starter
Rider Journeyman
 
BillyOmaha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Granite Bay, CA, USA
Posts: 502
War on Terror: Seriously....

Howdy Gang,

I have been listening to the debate for awhile now, followed the elections/media/polls, listened to the troop increase vs. redeployment (withdrawal) debate and the latest Congressional dialogue on the subject.

I think most of us are reasonable people. We all, for the most part, want the same things in life, safety, good health, a few bucks in the bank, etc.. Yes, Ted Kennedy and George Bush want the same things, they just disagree on how to make them happen.

When I hear the debate about Iraq in terms of what we, the United States of America, should do, what I don't hear from those advocating the position of, essentially, "get out" is a prediction about the consequences of that action.

If we stay engaged in Iraq, we certainly have influence in that country, regardless of whether that is good, or bad.

If we leave we have substantially less influence over the direction that country heads. Seems that this would be self evident, but I am saying it as a premise to my question:

If the United States of America leaves Iraq before ensuring that our objectives are met, which is an Iraq that is democratic, at peace with it's neighbors and an ally in the war on terror, then what are the likely long term consequences of failing to meet those objectives;

for Iraq?
for the Middle East?
for Africa?
for Europe?
for the United States?

.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05
'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
RCB, AMA, BMWMOA, Booze Brother "in training"
BillyOmaha is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 2007, 12:22 pm
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 53
Who's the bad guy here

Long before you ever get to that question lets talk about the bullshit we were fed as a reason to even go into Iraq. Weapons of mass destruction my ass. 19 highjackers came from saudi arabia why didn't we start there. It wouldn't have anything to do with the royal family investing 100's of millions if not billions in the Bush's oil buisness would it? THERE'S A SMALL VILLAGE SOMEWHERE IN TEXAS MISSING ITS IDIOT!!!!
tropicaldave is offline  
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 2007, 12:27 pm Thread Starter
Rider Journeyman
 
BillyOmaha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Granite Bay, CA, USA
Posts: 502
Arguing about the past allows us not to move forward. It's like the Palastinian's and Israeli's arguing over who's people had Jeruselem at a particular point in history.

Regarding Iraq, what do we do now, right now, and what are the likely consequences of that action?

.

Bill "Omaha"

"Life may have begun at 44, but it didn't get thrilling until I shot past 100"

'06 K1200R "Wolfgang" White Aluminum Metallic, FB 6/7/05
'04 K1200LT "Dieter" Titan Silver, FB 4/23/04
RCB, AMA, BMWMOA, Booze Brother "in training"
BillyOmaha is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 2007, 1:26 pm
Addict
 
carnadero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sillycon Valley, CA, USA
Posts: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicaldave
Long before you ever get to that question lets talk about the bullshit we were fed as a reason to even go into Iraq. Weapons of mass destruction my ass.
If you actually put the maximum amount of weight into this one single reason, .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicaldave
19 highjackers came from saudi arabia why didn't we start there.
I would agree that something should be done, however, what would you propose we do? Do we invade or bomb them simply because the nationalities of the majority of the hijackers matched? As vile as the Saudis/Wahabbis are, at the moment they're officially "allies".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicaldave
THERE'S A SMALL VILLAGE SOMEWHERE IN TEXAS MISSING ITS IDIOT!!!!
This is why debates nowadays are largely pointless - personal attacks quickly surface instead of a focus on relevant facts.

Important information: I am not a "Bushie". In my own personal opinion, there are a few things he did right, but some very crucial things he did wrong. And in the vein of this topic, the way things have progressed in Iraq, I feel, do fall into that category.

Black 2002 K1200RS - "The Beast" (over 100k miles)
carnadero is offline  
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 2007, 1:47 pm
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 53
My point wasn't that we should bomb them because of thier nationality. But Iraq had nothing to do with 911 either. In fact its been stated that when approached by osma to join sides that saddam told him he didn't want any part of it. Now look at the recruiting paradise thats been created
tropicaldave is offline  
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 12th, 2007, 2:14 pm
Addict
 
carnadero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sillycon Valley, CA, USA
Posts: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by tropicaldave
But Iraq had nothing to do with 911 either.
Maybe, maybe not, but in the context of the WOT, waiting for an attack by terrorists only ensures that before we take action, some of the lives of OUR countrymen will be sacrificed. Is that what you advocate - that ten, or a hundred, or heaven forbid, a thousand Americans die first before we go after terrorists?

You might want to rethink your doubt about Saddam's position with regard to terrorism by his appearing to not want to hook up with bin Laden. Remember his program of payoffs for the families of Palestinian suicide/murder bombers?

Black 2002 K1200RS - "The Beast" (over 100k miles)
carnadero is offline  
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 2007, 11:58 am
Rookie
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
Posts: 71
Wow, my head is going to explode I have so much to say.
But I cannot type it all here. I do have a few thoughts to share.

1) The best thing to come from this ordeal is the fact that nearly all of our troops are OUT of Saudi Arabia. This is a start to treating them as they should be treated going forward.
We are now LESS in bed with them. It amazes me how long we are friends with 2 sworn enemies, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

2) If we leave and the area is not somewhat stable we will be fighting this war again in the future in some way. (there may be no way to not fight this again)

3) If we leave and are perceived as defeated it will certainly embolden other groups in the future.

4) I think the accuracy of our weapons are the best and worst things to happen to war. When it was massive and dirty and civilians died by the tens of thousands people were more vehemently against it. Leaders and civilians. While being able to pinpoint where a bomb goes is useful, it has lead many to back conflicts they would not normally support and this leads to the US being involved in things we should not be involved in.

5) It is near impossible to stop religious conflicts that have been raging for thousands of years.

6) As far as I am concerned the terrorists have won. I do not trust Muslims, period. If they are not willing to stand up for themselves I do not trust them.
Please profile them, exclude them, and stay away from them.
Perhaps they will stand up against the terrorists.

Too often you hear that the majority is peaceful, well why don't they report when people start to talk about violence as a solution? Why don't they come forward when their leaders preach hate? Afraid for their families??? So are we here in the US who sent family members over there. I am sure there are many families in all of the major factions that know the names and locations of the insurgents and rebels. When the bad guys realize they cannot hide among the populace without being outed they will have to stop or stay away from the regular people. If that happens we/they can more easily erase them.
If they will not stand up for themselves and take risks let some one dominate them till they do. If they do not do this now, no matter how "stable" we make the region as soon as we leave the bullies will be back.
We all know there is only one way to defeat a bully. Stand up to them.

7) Turn war back into war. If a country attacks us, attack them, full scale. Let them know we fight for keeps. Go in, win, set up OUR government for a minimum of 50yrs before we hand things back to whoever is interested locally. At the very minimum we should run the place till we recoup double what it took to win.
If an ally needs our help internally only commit what they are willing to commit to the problem.

Whew, sorry that was so long.



Sledzep
sledzep01 is offline  
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 2007, 10:35 pm
Enthusiast
 
scot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, OH, USA
Posts: 200
Good points all

Sledzep01. Maybe a little extreme, can't say I disagree.

Wow I didn't know BMW made motorcycles, Yeah I think Honda does too.
scot is offline  
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 2007, 10:40 pm
Rookie
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by scot
Sledzep01. Maybe a little extreme, can't say I disagree.
I think we are heading into some extreme times.

Sledzep
sledzep01 is offline  
post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 2007, 6:32 am
Veteran
 
BAK04GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Meredith, NH, USA
Posts: 1,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by sledzep01
Wow, my head is going to explode I have so much to say.
But I cannot type it all here. I do have a few thoughts to share.

1) The best thing to come from this ordeal is the fact that nearly all of our troops are OUT of Saudi Arabia. This is a start to treating them as they should be treated going forward.
We are now LESS in bed with them. It amazes me how long we are friends with 2 sworn enemies, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

2) If we leave and the area is not somewhat stable we will be fighting this war again in the future in some way. (there may be no way to not fight this again)

3) If we leave and are perceived as defeated it will certainly embolden other groups in the future.

4) I think the accuracy of our weapons are the best and worst things to happen to war. When it was massive and dirty and civilians died by the tens of thousands people were more vehemently against it. Leaders and civilians. While being able to pinpoint where a bomb goes is useful, it has lead many to back conflicts they would not normally support and this leads to the US being involved in things we should not be involved in.

5) It is near impossible to stop religious conflicts that have been raging for thousands of years.

6) As far as I am concerned the terrorists have won. I do not trust Muslims, period. If they are not willing to stand up for themselves I do not trust them.
Please profile them, exclude them, and stay away from them.
Perhaps they will stand up against the terrorists.

Too often you hear that the majority is peaceful, well why don't they report when people start to talk about violence as a solution? Why don't they come forward when their leaders preach hate? Afraid for their families??? So are we here in the US who sent family members over there. I am sure there are many families in all of the major factions that know the names and locations of the insurgents and rebels. When the bad guys realize they cannot hide among the populace without being outed they will have to stop or stay away from the regular people. If that happens we/they can more easily erase them.
If they will not stand up for themselves and take risks let some one dominate them till they do. If they do not do this now, no matter how "stable" we make the region as soon as we leave the bullies will be back.
We all know there is only one way to defeat a bully. Stand up to them.

7) Turn war back into war. If a country attacks us, attack them, full scale. Let them know we fight for keeps. Go in, win, set up OUR government for a minimum of 50yrs before we hand things back to whoever is interested locally. At the very minimum we should run the place till we recoup double what it took to win.
If an ally needs our help internally only commit what they are willing to commit to the problem.

Whew, sorry that was so long.



Sledzep
...couldnt have been said better

I have" duct tape" for your head if you need it...but i found that long strips of velcro are more cost effective in the long run
BAK04GT is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome