Unethical and disrespectful behavior by the moderator at www.bmwk1200s.com - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 4:38 pm Thread Starter
 
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Unethical and disrespectful behavior by the moderator at www.bmwk1200s.com

Dear All,

Something happened today that just got me puzzled and a bit upset, and I want to share this story with this as I find what happened to be highly improper. I am afraid this is a long story (mostly copied and pasted), but I am writing it down for sharing so you know the disrespectful behavior of the bmwk1200s forum's moderator called Shiva.

A couple of days ago I started a post at www.bmwk1200s.com, and the post basically was asking for advise about getting a second bike to my K1200R (you can see my recent post here at this forum as well). Several of the users on the forum kindly provided input and advice. At some point, the moderator Shiva also provided his input. In several of his follow-up emails he started to disrespectfully attack several of the other member's advice as their views did not aligning with his opinions. For example,
- He was getting down on a user (sledzep01) who he did not backup his statements regarding the Suzuki 109 with facts (reasonable), but Shiva then incorrectly stated several things about the comparison based on his beliefs and estimates.
- Another user (sfarson) provided information about the outcomes of different magazines about the strength of the VROD, and obviously sfarson likes the VROD as well, being an owner of the machine. Shiva, comes out with "Sfarson, have you ridden the V-Rod or the Rocket III? I have ridden both and the Rod is a POS. Good only for the straight lines and can't corner for sh*t and don't expect it to stop either. ". Sfarson, correctly relays information about the VROD's ability to be quicker and have a shorter breaking distance. Shiva, goes on to assume a lot of stuff about people's experience etc, and then basically says "steve (sfarsons real name, my note), i am really surprised that you simply don't get it. actually disappointed in you. you seem adamant in somehow trying to make a point that my personal experience is invalid compare to magazine articles, even though I review bikes for mags" to then continue accusing him of dick-waving.

I was surprised by all this so I sent the following
BEGIN QUOTE:
We have to recognize that what we like about bikes often comes down to subjective opinions, which is why different testers and different mags at times have different outcomes. If a bike more often than not ends up in the top among testers, it at least indicates to me that the bike has potential and has generated enough interest for me to check it out. Then there is quantitative data about acceleration, braking distance etc (and they depend on drivers' level of comfort when it comes to pulling the brake hard, the environment etc).

I am not a HD fan but I have to give them credit for the V-ROD. They are doing something new, putting a great engine in it developed by Porsche, the design is awesome in my mind, and several testers like it a lot, and there are some who do not like it at all. It seems to be a hit-or-miss bike when it comes to liking it, but that is to be expected when HD is building something quite different.

Shiva, previously you were picking on sledzep01 saying " sorry, I know you're new to our forum, but it is rare for anyone to get away with such a generalization without data to support their claim on here. ", and yet you were incorrectly guesstimating MR-109 (what about that for factual data), come out strongly saying "... I have ridden both and the Rod is a POS. Good only for the straight lines and can't corner for sh*t and don't expect it to stop either. ". That is not really factual data, or specific. It is your epitomized opinion. Shouldn't the same standard hold for everyone? Shiva, I don't recognize this - it is not like you. In any event, maybe you had a bad day - we all have that at some point.

Seriously, we are talking about motorcycles here for fun, enjoying our hobbies etc. Let us try to enjoy each other's experiences and in the absence of not being able to determine absolute/objective truths, let us recognize that we have different opinions but be respectful.
END QUOTE:

Shiva's response is:
"guys, its a simple fact of riding bikes and offering opinion. each thread deserves its own merit and can't really be compared to other threads. this is not a generalization. to read about the Rod on paper is one thing and to ride is another. I have ridden it and in my rather expert opinion is a POS.
I don't care what anyone thinks, or how they feel about it and I don't really care if others agree or disagree.

I, unlike almost every person on this planet am not running for office and do not attempt to please the whole planet by making statements that everyone likes to hear.

I follow very simple rules:

If I don't know something, I say nothing, or I say so.
If I know a little, I may say a little or I say so.
But if I do know something, I make a statement.

I am careful how I place my words. And I haven't made any words that I didn't mean 100%.

As I said before, this case is closed. " End of quote

My response to all this was (at this point I was disgusted by his behavior and his big ego)

" Well, you do not have to be politically correct, and neither do I. Life is not a popularity contest, but that does not suggest to me it is incorrect to show some respect or decency. They are not orthogonal or mutually exclusive concepts. And I know that you say the case is closed (but who are you to decide this).
Nevertheless, I have to disagree on a few things.
- You do not backup you statement that you know that V-ROD is a POS with real data. Thus, it seems that you do not *know* it is a POS, rather you *think* or it is your *opinion* that it is a POS. Completely different story.
- You were incorrectly stating that the VROD had worse performance and braking distance the Rocket III. That is your knowledge? There is a difference between what you feel on a bike, but sometimes quantiative data is the best and here we have it.
- If you are going to pick on other people about generalizing without substantial data, then it seems that you should lead the way and show what you expect the standard should be in this forum. Personally, I do not care for unsubstantiated opinions, and especially not from experts, true or self-proclaimed, because even experts tend to be subjective at times. I do not expect everyone to be detailed, and I know when to scrutinize opinions, but you are coming on strong on someone's behavior, and then replicates the behavior that you so strongly discouraged. That is hypocritical behavior. (You can write that statement off of course, but it is fact that you in this case you were not consistent).

If I were you, I would consider updating those rules of yours.
"

Shiva's actions were as follows:
1) Remove this last post
2) Lock the thread and remove the thread from the list, but it can be searched for. You can find it here:http://bmwk1200s.com/forum/viewtopic...779&highlight=
3) Sent me the following message:
" hi, I know you're new to the forum and aren't aware of some of our rules. we run things differently on here and frankly we aren't everyone's cup of tea and frankly that's how I like it. there is nothing typical about us.

your last post was deleted and the thread has been locked. as admin when I state case closed, it means that particular thread is done with and its time to move on.

you may disagree, and I would understand if you decide not to participate any more.

cheers, S
"

Before I had seen this I had posted another post saying the following:
"It seems that the recent thread on "Getting a second bike, possibly the triumph rocket III." has ended up missing the list of threads. Maybe the site is suffering from technical or other difficulties. Fortunately though it seems that it still shows up when searching for it (http://bmwk1200s.com/forum/viewtopic...79&highlight=). Shiva, maybe you can help us put it back into the list of threads. I also I noticed that my last response to the thread made it through, but was later removed and the thread was locked. Again, maybe you can recover that when time permits you.

In any event, in the meantime and for your convenience, I am including the partial content of the thread (basically the highlights and hairy end), and then my response. If it happens to be removed, I will be happy to email the thread to everyone involved in the discussion. In fact I should take the liberty and send it to all the people involved in the thread to help overcoming the problem (I have also been told plan for the worst) so no information is being lost here. I am including you Shiva, so nothing is hidden to you and nothing happens behind your back, which is a courtesy you did not extend.

Thanks,

J.
"

Shiva's response: I got banned from the forum!?!?!?! Obviously an interesting action from someone who says "I don't care what anyone thinks, or how they feel about it and I don't really care if others agree or disagree" To my surprise, the primary thing that I had done was to point out to him that I thought he was disrespectfully attacking other members of the forum and that he did not substantiate his facts in ways that he himself demanded from others.

After learning that I had been banned - My response in an email to him was:

" Shiva,

You just have deserved my fullest contempt. You were rudely and disrespectfully attacking several members of the forum (not me), but once I pointed out that to you, you decided to lock the thread and remove my post because it shows who you truly are. And a few other
things, I have been reading this forum for the last 2.5 years, but I do not contribute a lot to technical discussions but I do know about the style and hidden rules of the forum - you just assumed I did not (in fact and again, you think you know a lot, but you don't know much about me). The rule that you did not mention is "I am Shiva, and I am the one who decides here, and what ever I do not like, or if anyone identifies any weaknesses and shortcomings of mine, then he/she will be banned". Being an Admin comes with some responsibility, and hiding when you mess up should not be one of them.

How convenient to ban me, who you think is a new reader of the forum. I am sure it will not go unnoticed by other who was reading the thread, that it has been removed.

If you ever care for having an honest discussion, feel free to contact me and I will have that. Any time you want to talk about what constitutes real knowledge, again be happy to contact me and I will share what I know. "

Regards, J. aka Swedishviking"

I do not care that I have been excluded from the forum, I expected that could happen when sending the last post that he could not take criticism well. What is disconcerting is more his behavior, and the sole purpose of all this is to let you how really acts when in control of the forum. I am a researcher in the field computer science, and I have been using various kinds of fora since 1987; I have never seen a moderator behave like this and I hope I never have to do it again.

I am pleased that the K-bikes.com does not seem to suffer from issues of this nature.

Thanks to everyone here as well as the people at bmwk1200s who so generously share advice and information politely and unassumingly.

Thanks. J.

PS. I do not think this post is against any policy here at k-bikes. My objective here has been to give all the details of the story so everyone can judge for themselves. If you fail to find the original thread, let me know and I will forward it to you or post it so everyone has a chance to see it.

Last edited by Viking; Apr 19th, 2007 at 8:06 pm.
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post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 6:34 pm
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Don't feel bad.
You just learned what EVERY ONE on EVERY other BMW forum knows.

Shiva is an Ego maniac and this is his modus operandi.

He is the biggest JOKE in the BMW fraternity of riders.

From what I hear from members of the official BMW forum, it is lucky if it gets 2 posts a day and he is a big reason for it. And those 2 posts are always from the same guy who doesn't own a BMW.
To bad they wasted all their time and money.
I refuse to go to any site of his.

Richie
04 K12GT
89K100RS (Gone, but not forgotten)

Last edited by cruizbz; Apr 19th, 2007 at 9:53 pm.
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post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 7:39 pm
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I am with Richie on this one, I dont hang out here much but def dont go to his site, of course I about fell out of my chair at his proclaiming himself an "expert" but then I have seen him ride. he is borderline dangerous in a group. or at least was last time I rode in one he was in.

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post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 8:49 pm
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I've never been there, heard too many bad things to want to. One thing does seal the deal for me, I know SFarson personally, he's a great guy, great rider, and has ridden and owned many many bikes. He posts facts and well informed opinions that are based on his experience... and he adds to the richness of the many discussion boards he frequents by posting interesting pictures, videos, and worthwhile commentary. If Shiva has a problem with SFarson, then Shiva has a problem with good people.

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post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 9:26 pm
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Rich... I think I have your address to send the $10.

Viking... Have been around and see value with all two wheeled things. Recall in the thread I noted the Rocket III, M109R, and V-Rod were all top shelf bikes.

This set Shiva off into an online rage like I've rarely seen. When he threw out baseless claims I responded with performance facts/specs from MCN. He couldn't stand it, dismissing the facts and saying experience mattered most and I wasn't as experienced as he. He didn't know I had the personal ownership experience . When I supported the verified and tested specs with years of in-the-saddle perspective he was left with nothing but raging words completely ignoring the posts in the thread. He couldn't stand to be wrong. It revealed sadly, an erratic and egotistical mind, a man in need of help. Even a moderator he appointed cautioned him to get a grip. Ironic in all this, is he would have been the one banned... had it not been his forum. I kept the thread as evidence; it is quite the display. He removed the thread for it is incriminating. Indeed it is. Though not banned, I won't be returning.

You will find the site here to be a much finer K Bike community.

Steve

Last edited by sfarson; Apr 19th, 2007 at 9:34 pm.
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post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 9:49 pm
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Steve,
I know from your many posts and videos on other forums. You KNOW what you are talking about.
I have had the same experience with him. Refusing to acknowledge that a post was made or ignoring the facts. He is a liar and dishonorable man, who will not stop at any thing to feed his ego.

I have no idea, why BMW picked him for a moderator on their official site. If they read ANY BMW site but his, they would know what a loon he is.

On another site, they just had thread about the longest ride you have ever took. My favorite response was, "Any one with Shiva!"

It is a true shame that BMW spent all that time and money to develop a site and could not find any one better to run it.

I have never been banned by him. But, if he reads this I am sure that he will have BMW take my bike back or not allow the dealer to sell me the G650 X Challenge I was looking at the other day.

Richie
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post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 10:17 pm Thread Starter
 
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Thanks

Steve, I appreciated your input in the thread and from what I wrote above, you know what I think of Shiva's behavior. And from what other people here say, you seem to be a great guy, which I already expected from reading your posts in the past. You have my and many other people's respect. Like you I also saved the thread.

Cruizbiz, karlb, rhhall: Thanks to you other guys for sharing your experiences as well. I guess I was not fully aware of the extent of Shiva's shortcomings, but I learn.

It seems like the BMW community could do better without Shiva's involvement. The more people are aware what kind of behavior he is conducting, then people can vote with their feet.

Best, J.
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post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 19th, 2007, 10:49 pm
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Boy, what a flake. I'd heard bad things about that guy also, but it was always third or fourth hand. He must be a good bull artist to have convinced BMW to moderate. If he's as bad a rider as he is moderator, and especially if he THINKS he's as good as he apparently does, then all we have to do is wait. Darwin has a way of making thing work out in the end.

J

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post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 2007, 12:34 am
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WOW, I missed the best parts and now it is gone!
I just checked and have not been banned for liking my 109! But I do not think I will go back. I have been reading 3 sites while I researched my new bike purchase. This one, his, and I-BMW. I will be giving his up.
I never minded that it was kept very focused, with no real fun and or personal expression allowed but if there can really only be HIS view you cant really learn anything of value there.


So Viking, have you decided what to buy?? If you are nearby I might even let you try the 109, I still like it better than the RIII even after I learned from Shiva that My own opinion was wrong

Sledzep
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post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 2007, 7:50 am Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Sledzep,

I will repost the thread in its complete form during weekend (time will not permit me to do it today, since when copying and pasting it, various pictures, avatars etc was included I think they need to be removed otherwise it will look messy). People here and elsewhere I have talked to has convinced me that it is better to inform people and not letting it go unnoticed and if everyone can read the original thread, then everyone is allowed to judge for themselves.

Thanks for your offer on the M109 - that is quite a gesture. I have Suzuki dealers nearby so there is no need to. I going to test ride 2-3 bikes tomorrow, and then I will learn more.

Best, J.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sledzep01
WOW, I missed the best parts and now it is gone!
I just checked and have not been banned for liking my 109! But I do not think I will go back. I have been reading 3 sites while I researched my new bike purchase. This one, his, and I-BMW. I will be giving his up.
I never minded that it was kept very focused, with no real fun and or personal expression allowed but if there can really only be HIS view you cant really learn anything of value there.


So Viking, have you decided what to buy?? If you are nearby I might even let you try the 109, I still like it better than the RIII even after I learned from Shiva that My own opinion was wrong

Sledzep
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