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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 2:16 am Thread Starter
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balancing wheel

Fitted a new front tyre, balanced it. Decided to fit new pads. Then I fitted the wheel and spun it. Thought....Perfect way to balance a wheel. The pads are not contacting yet. Wheel spins and I can check bearings, axle. Whats the thoughts on balancing a front wheel that way? Must be at least as good as the machine I had just used.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 11:01 am
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You could also add about a pound or two of Dyna-Beads to the tire and just forget balancing all together.

Seriously, my tire guy balances my car tires on the car with a motorized spinner. Some big 240 volt motor with a huge drum and he spins it up to about 60 mph. He puts his hand on the fender and watches his little finger wiggle and puts a test weight on the rim and retries. In a few attempts, it's pretty well tuned in and his finger is rock steady. Balances the drums, rotors, CVC joints, axles, the whole tamale. Takes a bit more time, but you can see and feel the difference and he gets a lot of work by doing it in front of people. He also spotted a CVC joint blown out doing it and I had to have it replaced there once.

Your method is probably as good as the normal method providing the bearings don't have a booger in them and the pads are off the rotor. You could test it by taping a penny on the rim and spinning it to see how accurate your method is. That's how I do my test balancing on the Marc Parne's balancer to determine a starting point for the stick-on weights. If I can get the penny test (or a few of them) to settle at various points on the spin, I call it quits, weigh it, and stick on the equivalent weight (weight/2 on both sides of the center of the rim).


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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 11:38 am
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I've seen those balancers in the tire shops and often wondered how the electronic meter tells them the position and weight to add. I suspect the spindle is floating against some kind of strain guage.

I tried balancing the clutch once and it's pretty difficult using gravity unless you have virtually zero friction on the support. The less friction you have, the closer the tolerance of the weights.

I'm no statistician, but I suppose you could try the roulette wheel approach: Spin the wheel a thousand times and determine the probability of where a marked point stops each time. Add some weight and repeat another 1000 times until the result becomes random. But easier to let the tire shop do it!



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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 11:49 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMack
You could also add about a pound or two of Dyna-Beads to the tire and just forget balancing all together.

Seriously, my tire guy balances my car tires on the car with a motorized spinner. Some big 240 volt motor with a huge drum and he spins it up to about 60 mph. He puts his hand on the fender and watches his little finger wiggle and puts a test weight on the rim and retries. In a few attempts, it's pretty well tuned in and his finger is rock steady. Balances the drums, rotors, CVC joints, axles, the whole tamale. Takes a bit more time, but you can see and feel the difference and he gets a lot of work by doing it in front of people. He also spotted a CVC joint blown out doing it and I had to have it replaced there once.

Your method is probably as good as the normal method providing the bearings don't have a booger in them and the pads are off the rotor. You could test it by taping a penny on the rim and spinning it to see how accurate your method is. That's how I do my test balancing on the Marc Parne's balancer to determine a starting point for the stick-on weights. If I can get the penny test (or a few of them) to settle at various points on the spin, I call it quits, weigh it, and stick on the equivalent weight (weight/2 on both sides of the center of the rim).


Mack
Oh yes the motorized spinner.......they have been around for at least 40 years....it's all good until you have to rotate your tires.......then you have to pay $5-10.00 a wheel to redo it all. My father was a mechanical engineer who owned a car dealership......no way he would have bought such a machine for the shop. The good old Snap-On static balancer, lets you split the weights at a 20-30 degree angle from the "light point" and on both sides of the wheel, ruled then, possibly still does.A little slow maybe.....! I must have balanced thousand of tires on one of those, and if they were new tires we would test drive them too, that was cool....! Never had to redo any of them either. We knew, but SOP in the shop, and fun rides in them Big Block Chevys from the 60s and 70s.
But it could also be the "Operator", like the guy using a dynamic balancer who put about 8-10 Oz of weights on my small Toyota wheel and never noticed the bent wheel...... , or the guy who balanced the rear wheel on my K1200RS......at least he got the front one right.

And Dyna Beads......


Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
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Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 1:26 pm Thread Starter
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wheels

Quote:
Originally Posted by h96669
But it could also be the "Operator", like the guy using a dynamic balancer who put about 8-10 Oz of weights on my small Toyota wheel and never noticed the bent wheel...... , or the guy who balanced the rear wheel on my K1200RS......at least he got the front one right.
Exactly why I have the gravity balancer in the garage. It was good enough for the formula one blokes, good enough for me. The tyre shops are working to a time frame. One guy insisted I leave the shop, result, broken footpeg. Plus he had not pumped up the brakes and I rode out of the shop with out brakes. Solved that damn quick. I prefer to do my own balancing because, I have lots of time and cold tinnies, and gravity does not lie.

Last edited by Razel; Nov 24th, 2009 at 2:51 pm. Reason: Fixed tags
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 3:54 pm
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dyna beads

I allways did the gravity (at home) balance useing the wheel bearings on a axel on my kawasakis and had no problem , but haveing the tubless tires on the bmw k1200rs tried the dyna beads on three tires now (2 oz in rear) (1.5 oz in front) and the bike has never hinted at haveing a out of balance condition , I rocket up to and over 100mph fairly regularly , allways no vibes from tires .I do worry about inflating the tire with wet air and causeing a problem with the dyna beads , for the money and time involved I like the dyna beads delivered, about $12 a tire . joesflashdog
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 6:24 pm
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+1 on the dynabeads . My GT feels like glass at all speeds 20 mph - 130 mph. No matter how ur tire wears the beads are dynamic.

Have a Great Ride, Lenbo

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 10:10 pm
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Snake oil revisted?

Dave Searle for Motorcycle Consumer News,
published Oct. 2006,
page 48 reads at the end:
"Taking the bike out on the road, repeating the same stretch of freeway several times at speeds up to 85mph, the beaded tire felt heavier, with a strong sense of gyro stability, but was noticeably less smooth running than when factory balanced, but perhaps just slightly better than with the original weights removed."


My add:
I fell for Jay Leno's pitch on the liquid balancer and tire sealant stuff. I was more impressed with the stuff's ability to resist flats even caused by drilling into the tire and running over boards with nail heads. The liquid is also to float around inside the tire, coating it and balancing it as well. The stuff is called "Ride-On." They make it for cars and motorcycles and claim they are different. I bought a bunch of the stuff. The motorcycle stuff still sits in the garage pending what happened below.

In the car, the stuff literally shook the car for about 50 miles - and hard! I had to keep the speed slow as it really shook and I thought I would have to take it to the tire shop and get it removed and get a stern lecture from "Tire Guy." After maybe 60 miles, it did coat the tires (I guess?) and it smoothed out a bit. However, the next day it shook on the freeway and slowly smoothed out. Not exactly happy about it so I decided to leave it out of the motorcycle tires. It would only be about 4-5 ounces and what is left after the coating shouldn't affect the balance. Decided against it so it's here now on the counter.

When I had to go the rental car route due to the bike's ability to break down hundreds of miles from home, I was amazed at how smooth the rental car's drove down the road. I was sucked into some placebo effect of the liquid stuff. Then as I think about it, would driving around with a bunch of nails in the tire be a good thing on a motorcycle? Liquid should behave much the same as mercury balancers of old (I had two installed on my old Harley and it still shook the primary and clutch basket). If the tires were perfectly balanced before the stuff was added, they sure aren't now even if the stuff was to moved about inside the tire. I noticed they've removed much of the balancing effect now and concentrate on the sealing effect. The shaking is still there at times and depending on how the car gets up to speed, it may smooth out or it may not.


Fwiw, if you go to this site, you can see the similar product to Dyna-Beads in action with a strobe: Centramatic Ball Balancing Video - How It Works...
Note that in the very first portion of the video without the magnet, watch closely at the large silver bolt head of the balancer directly underneath the tire (about one inch) which represents the frame of your car or bike. It does not move on start-up or at full speed. The guy even says "The balance isn't bad."

Then he adds the magnet to the rim for an unbalance condition. Again, watch that bolt under the tire. It shakes as does the wire on the right.

He next adds the balls (Dyna-Beads) in the ring and spins it up again. Note how violent the assembly shakes on run-up and then smooths out. However, the bolt under the tire (frame) is shaking pretty bad although he tells you it is "Perfectly balanced" -- OH NO IT'S NOT!! Look at the silver bolt shaking! He's lying and if you listen you believe him. Look at the damn bolt head! It's telling you something!

He then takes off the magnet and leaves the balls in the ring on and the same spin-up is repeated. The whole thing shakes even though he says "It's perfectly balanced." The thing should not shake on spin-up nor at speed, but it does.

Dyna-Beads claim the product "Reduces cupping" which isn't the reason tires cup, feather, or fall victim to heel-toe wear. It's the "islands" created by the tire tread pattern and their rocking and abrasion during braking and acceleration. If you run a slick - even grossly unbalanced - you won't see any tread cupping because it can't abrade any islands as there aren't any. Tire tread patterns have been marginalized against creating "tread islands" in the past few years on sport tires.


Mack
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 11:13 pm
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Anything that rotates should be balanced or it may vibrate.

Motorcycle tires are made to very demanding standards but they are still never truly round.
You my have a balanced wheel/tire but have vibrations due to out-of-roundness.

I think the wheel should be balanced by itself. Affix wheel weights permanently.
Then after the tire is installed (properly) rebalance the assembly, static and dynamic.
Now this will not totally balance the tire at all speeds. The tire as a mass moves at speed and as it contacts the road. So there is no perfect balance.

Tires are imperfect. But that is all we have to work with.

See Yokohama tire paper at; http://www.yokohamatire.com/pdf/tsb-...ance-12803.pdf
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2009, 11:49 pm
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on the last two posts.....I found some interesting stuff on all that, but need to sleep on it before I can put it together.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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