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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 2007, 5:05 pm Thread Starter
 
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Unhappy ABS issues

G'day All

I have been a bit of a lurker, thought I would chime in with an issue I have been having with my K1200RS 02 model I have owned it since new and though I have been told there is nothing wrong with it I refuse to believe that I am the only one that is experiencing this issue.
I found on rough road's ONLY the braking system "lets go" it does not no how to handle continuous bumps in the road, it does not matter wether you are solo or two up fast or slow,
if you are braking on a rough surface the brakes just STOP working
I have replaced the shocks front and rear with Ohlins, I have changed brake pads I have talked too tech,s and they just tell me I am mad the brakes had been bleed too
I had this issue with R1150RT and was told by BMW Oz that I ride too hard for this bike I doubt it, so thats when I upgraded to K1200 RS
pls tell I am not mad and others have had this un-nerving experience :wtf
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 2007, 7:13 pm
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How many miles are you getting from your pads?

Is your ABS actually working? If you lose traction on a wheel whilst braking, the ABS should be modulating your brakes because if you used a heavy foot or hard hand, you'ld just lock the wheel with no braking at all. Is that what you mean't by 'Let go'?



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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 2007, 7:37 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by voxmagna
How many miles are you getting from your pads?

Is your ABS actually working? If you lose traction on a wheel whilst braking, the ABS should be modulating your brakes because if you used a heavy foot or hard hand, you'ld just lock the wheel with no braking at all. Is that what you mean't by 'Let go'?
no the brakes stop working and release so NO BRAKES as soon as they hit rough roads if you are braking at the time
as I mentioned before this is an issue I had on my 1150RT but NOT on anyother of my bee meers to which I have owned 3 others
just thought I would mention I have been riding for 30 odd years
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 2007, 7:43 pm
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Went down a dirt road once, that was supposed to have been well graded according to the person giving me directions. Forgot to mention, though, that it had rained the weekend before, and it was rutted pretty good. Weirdest thing I've dealt with, which I'm obviously not that good at...I couldn't stop. ABS would kick in and I kept going down hill. I wanted to stop and collect my thoughts, but not this time. Got through it, but obviously, I was doing things wrong.

Now, I know it's not a dirt bike, and I also know you get a switch to turn off ABS on GS models, probably for the purpose of handling loose surfaces. I might have had better luck if I'd just applied the brakes quicker and released just as quickly.
Found a different path to the campgrounds, so it wasn't a problem anymore...



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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 2007, 8:07 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Razel
Went down a dirt road once, that was supposed to have been well graded according to the person giving me directions. Forgot to mention, though, that it had rained the weekend before, and it was rutted pretty good. Weirdest thing I've dealt with, which I'm obviously not that good at...I couldn't stop. ABS would kick in and I kept going down hill. I wanted to stop and collect my thoughts, but not this time. Got through it, but obviously, I was doing things wrong.

Now, I know it's not a dirt bike, and I also know you get a switch to turn off ABS on GS models, probably for the purpose of handling loose surfaces. I might have had better luck if I'd just applied the brakes quicker and released just as quickly.
Found a different path to the campgrounds, so it wasn't a problem anymore...
so what you are saying Razel is the brakes stop working or the wheels locked?
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2007, 6:40 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razel
Went down a dirt road once, that was supposed to have been well graded according to the person giving me directions. Forgot to mention, though, that it had rained the weekend before, and it was rutted pretty good. Weirdest thing I've dealt with, which I'm obviously not that good at...I couldn't stop. ABS would kick in and I kept going down hill. I wanted to stop and collect my thoughts, but not this time. Got through it, but obviously, I was doing things wrong.

Now, I know it's not a dirt bike, and I also know you get a switch to turn off ABS on GS models, probably for the purpose of handling loose surfaces. I might have had better luck if I'd just applied the brakes quicker and released just as quickly.
Found a different path to the campgrounds, so it wasn't a problem anymore...
When I've had the ABS operate on the rear in controlled situations to test it, I remember the modulator pulsing might not seem that quick in a realtime short braking scenario. They probably test the ABS on normal roads, in straight lines and high speeds. Thinking about it, in those tests where the ABS might pulse a dozen or more times, the overall braking efficiency is probably better, but over much shorter distances where you expect fast response, the 'off' time of the ABS could seem like no braking eternity. If you are also riding slowly, the pulsing frequency linked to the wheel sensors might also be slower giving a longer 'brake off' time - scary!

Good reason therefore why the GS has the ABS off switch for dirt riding. Somebody with a GS circuit could probably say what the switch controls.



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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2007, 1:37 pm
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ABS Issues

Until I just read this thread I never made the connection, but I too have had my brakes just "quit" working on a bump as well, the only difference is that mine didn't happen on continues bumps but on one BIG bump, I was going around a right hander that ended at a stop light and you had to either stop (if it was red) or turn right or left and I came up on the light, green just as I came around the corner and was just about to slow it down to execute the left and I hit a bump in the road unexpectedly that made my real wheel hop and as soon as the wheel "planted" again I hit the brake and NOTHING! I almost freaked out but I just did a quick down shift that slowed the bike enough to make the corner comfortably and after that the bike had no brake problem. I've never had it happen again but this is the first time I've heard anybody else make a comment about that. I thought it was just me!:-)
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2007, 3:06 pm
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You guys still had residual braking, right?

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2007, 3:46 pm Thread Starter
 
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You guys still had residual braking, right?
don't quite understand you comment, but in my case, there is NO brakes, I have over shot a T intersection and I was travel slow and two up this could have had terrible results if there had been other traffic. Oz roads are like tarred motoX tracks and when you are is sports mod on your fav bit of road these brakes can cause more than there share heart attacks :wtf I can remember one incident at high speed 200Kph setting my self up for crn brake just before entrance hit a some bumps and NO brakes, my whole crn maths gone straight out the window and had to move my crn apex and drift to wrong side of the road.... if there had been an oncoming vechical things may have been different
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2007, 4:30 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman
You guys still had residual braking, right?
Probably, but not at the precise instant the modulator was in control and removing braking.

If you think about what ABS (mine is simple 11) is doing, in response to loss of traction during braking, the system will assume a locked wheel (i.e no friction =skid=no braking anyway) so the hydro unit will relax braking effort and then re-apply it 'some time' later in a repeated cycle until both wheels are back in speed sychronism. The ABS may not know the difference between a few feet of bumps at 30mph with short skiddies and several hundred feet at 70mph. Its only information is your wheel speed and whether a wheel is locked or not compared to the other wheel. It doesn't matter what you do with the foot or hand brake, if both are hard on, the ABS will relieve the brakes and re-apply them according to its design algorithm. I don't know whether the system comes off quickly as soon as a wheel becomes unlocked, my impression on the few times I tried it was it modulates for a time afterwards - although when you're trying to keep the bike stable, you don't have much time for data and feedback analysis!

The first time I tested my ABS on a wet surface for a rear skid I found I could quickly release the brake then re-apply it less hard and stop the ABS coming on. In fact I was then using adequate braking and actually stopping a wheel lockup. Whether I can do this and stop sooner than holding the brake and letting the ABS do it is questionable and relies on rider skill not required when ABS is in control. Nobody has shown in circumstances when they had no brakes, there was sufficient friction to the road to have some brakes. Once a wheel loses grip, stability may take longer to get back than we think.

I was suggesting the system may not be clever enough to recognise short bumps and dips at slower speeds needing less 'off time' and possibly a faster modulation rate. Since the control is electro hydraulic the modulation rate may be relatively slow compared to tens of milliseconds needed for bumps and weaves. Most of the general times when ABS comes on you are riding too fast trying to stop too quick for the road surface conditions. If they fit an ABS off switch on the GS and the systems are basically the same, I think I'd assume the weakness will be low speed short duration skids/bumpy roads/gravel where you may get momentary loss of traction and the ABS kicks in with an algorithm designed for higher speed street braking on wet surfaces.

For most riders ABS has saved their ass when they probably needed it. Personally I feel if you ride to the limit where ABS is frequently active, then I'd look at joining a rider training course and learn how to use motorcycle brakes. Linked brakes you'll love or hate. If you try hard I'm sure there'll be some braking scenario which breaks the design algorithm.

I had one of the first performance diesel saloons. I always cadence brake similar to what the ABS modulator does - that was taught in all the schools. When I did this from 70mph for an emergency stop I was left with virtually no brakes and still moving. Why? because diesels use an engine driven vac. pump which (unlike carb manifolds) drops output during decel. Now with more diesels and ABS the schools recommend foot down for emergency braking.



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Last edited by voxmagna; Dec 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pm.
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