Timing chain cover drip solution - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 6th, 2005, 4:00 pm Thread Starter
 
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Timing chain cover drip solution

Has anyone ever tried a serious cure for that problem? For example milling an O'ring groove into the cover?

Recognize there are huge differences in the volume of metal in the mating parts that touch the timing chain cover. Also there are more than two that come together. Understand that the coeficient of expansion and contraction differ from the heavy part and the thinner cover part which is seemingly what causes that sealant to let go with time.

Had mine sealed under warranty a couple years ago at Daytona BMW and just noticed some wet oil after a trip to Tallahassee. Nuts! It is major surgery to seal it and no more warranty.

Doesn't put me out of business but oil pukes suck...

Anyone know of a permanent fix?
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 6th, 2005, 4:23 pm
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I came up with some ideas from previous exchanges on i-bmw, but mines not leaked badley enough yet to put them into practice.

Here's my thoughts: I don't believe any sort of 'goo' is a permanent fix. First I'd always check the flatness of the cover on a surface plate or float glass. Cast and pressed steel covers can start life pre-stressed when manufactured, then distort as they age and heat cycle on the motor.

I did some research with my local gasket supplier into a suitable material available in sheet form. They recommended a viton rubber and cork mix composite gasket sheet sold in various thicknesses. Milling a cover and fitting O ring rubber is a real quality way to go if you have the facilities or deep pockets. But if the mating surfaces are not distorted, a decent hand made gasket would do the job if it can be fitted. Since I've not removed my cover I don't know yet if there would be obstacles to using a gasket. I've made many special gaskets in the past. Usually I scan or photocopy a cover, make a paper template first, then cut out the profile. I use a set of leather punches or a nut and bolt to cut holes. Intricate shaping can be got with scissors and a scalpel.

These covers suck, so you only want to do the job (better than BMW) once and have it right for ever.



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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 7th, 2005, 8:58 am
 
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timing cover leak

Yes, the secret seems to be use Hondabond HT sealant. On the previous forum I posted a description of how I fixed mine after the dealer's fix failed. Search for that pdf file or I'll find the link later for you. My repair failed too so I recently started over and changed from Permatex Ultra Black to Hondabond HT. The document I wrote explains how to get at the mating surfaces and get them really clean - I think that is another important issue. I think the procedures are right, its just the sealant I recommend changing.

I've only got 3 months and about 500 miles on this repair, I think you need a couple thousand to really be sure it is working, so I was waiting to say anything on the forum, but so far it looks really good.

Also, I removed the front cover on my '98 R11R, had it powdercoated and replaced it using Hondabond HT and it sealed the first time. This cover is functionally the same as the K12RS timing cover.

Mark
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 7th, 2005, 8:50 pm
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbohn
Yes, the secret seems to be use Hondabond HT sealant. On the previous forum I posted a description of how I fixed mine after the dealer's fix failed. Search for that pdf file or I'll find the link later for you. My repair failed too so I recently started over and changed from Permatex Ultra Black to Hondabond HT. The document I wrote explains how to get at the mating surfaces and get them really clean - I think that is another important issue. I think the procedures are right, its just the sealant I recommend changing.

I've only got 3 months and about 500 miles on this repair, I think you need a couple thousand to really be sure it is working, so I was waiting to say anything on the forum, but so far it looks really good.

Also, I removed the front cover on my '98 R11R, had it powdercoated and replaced it using Hondabond HT and it sealed the first time. This cover is functionally the same as the K12RS timing cover.

Mark
This leak is a bitch to fix long term because the chain tentioner is mounted in the cover not in the main engine case like the earlier 1100 and 1000 engines. The oil pressure forces the oil out of the joint between the main case and the chain cover. They did this to make adjusting the valves easier but didn't allow for the pressure increase at the joint. If you were able machine a groove around the small hole that carries the oil to the tentioner and install a o ring, would be a permanent fix but would be out of the reach of most people.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 7th, 2005, 11:01 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popeyebedford
Has anyone ever tried a serious cure for that problem? For example milling an O'ring groove into the cover?


Anyone know of a permanent fix?
Permatex "Grey" Silicone gasket sealer. Remains rubbery forever, and has high resistnace against oils (unlike many silicones). I used it after an engine teardown on my old K100 3 years ago, and there isn't the slightest hint of oil anywhere.

Just be sure to clean all surfaces with an aggressive solvent like lacquer thinner then make sure they are bone dry before applying the bead of Permatex. If there is a gasket, you can continue to use it, but clean it well first too. Allow the stuff to cure for 24 hours before use.

Bob.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2005, 4:19 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HGP3
This leak is a bitch to fix long term because the chain tentioner is mounted in the cover not in the main engine case like the earlier 1100 and 1000 engines. The oil pressure forces the oil out of the joint between the main case and the chain cover. They did this to make adjusting the valves easier but didn't allow for the pressure increase at the joint. If you were able machine a groove around the small hole that carries the oil to the tentioner and install a o ring, would be a permanent fix but would be out of the reach of most people.
H
HGP3, Do you think the space beneath the chain cover can become pressurised when it should be vented to a breather, same as the main engine case or is the space under the cover at oil pressure?



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Last edited by voxmagna; Dec 8th, 2005 at 4:21 am. Reason: addition
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2005, 10:35 pm
 
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It's not crankcase pressure, it's actually main oil pressure, the same oil pressure that lubes the crank and everything else. Can be really high when you start up cold, especially with heavy weight oil. I think the leak happens when the engine is cold but I can't prove it. I reasealed mine a couple of times using all the factory and urban legends to no avail. (98model) I do use 15 x50 mob1, probably part of the problem. Doesn't do any more than weep and I can't see it unless the fairing lower is off. It never drips. And I sold it so it isn't my problem any more. The K12S doesn't leak or burn any oil.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 8th, 2005, 11:08 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HGP3
It's not crankcase pressure, it's actually main oil pressure, the same oil pressure that lubes the crank and everything else. Can be really high when you start up cold, especially with heavy weight oil. I think the leak happens when the engine is cold but I can't prove it. I reasealed mine a couple of times using all the factory and urban legends to no avail. (98model) I do use 15 x50 mob1, probably part of the problem. Doesn't do any more than weep and I can't see it unless the fairing lower is off. It never drips. And I sold it so it isn't my problem any more. The K12S doesn't leak or burn any oil.
H
How has temperature got anything to do with oil pressure? There is a pressure relief valve in all motors that opens well below 100psi.

Bob.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 2005, 12:54 am
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Cold temps and thick oil are going to cause high pressure. Not high flow, just high pressure. A hot engine generally fails due to low oil pressure, as the viscosity of the oil is close to water (very thin), and the oil pump can't deliver the volume needed. That pressure relief valve is only worth anything when it is dealing with an engine at operating temperature, the oil pump is efficient, and the bearing surfaces are within tolerance. Otherwise, when cold, it's going to relieve the oil pump with no consideration to upstream demands, and won't help when the oil pump starts cavitating when the oil is too hot and too thin.

Turbo can probably explain it much better, though.



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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old Dec 9th, 2005, 3:43 am
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Oil pressure per se is not such a simple thing that you can say is good or not good for an engine. The property of oil is such that it should get to the parts that need the lube and not break down under extreme pressure of the mechanical parts. So a hot engine with lower pressure and the lube getting everywhere, is better than a cold engine with thick oil at high pressure. That's why most engine wear occurs with regular cold starting, running and foolishly racing the motor when not up to temperature.

Fortunately I haven't been into my K's lube system for repairs yet, but most gasoline engines have to maintain oil pressure with a regulator close to the pump outlet incorporating a bypass to stop the pump failing with cold thick lube. It's not uncommon to find gasoline engines running for many years below the set regulated pressure when hot, particularly when low viscosity oils are used.

Back to the K's timing cover, if it really is at oil pressure somewhere from 40 to 60 psi, that does surprise me, because even the slightest leak would piss oil and you could have no oil and a burned out motor in minutes.



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