Possible fuel pump - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2014, 5:49 pm Thread Starter
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Possible fuel pump

Cruising at about 35 mph and lost throttle and died. Would not restart. Notice when I got home and turn the key on I didn't hear the normal sound of fuel pump .( I guess it's the fuel pump ) hum when I turn the key on all I get is the clicking of the brake failure. Hit the start button and it might try to start but then die. Sure could use some help if anyone out has any input
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2014, 7:57 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
Cruising at about 35 mph and lost throttle and died. Would not restart. Notice when I got home and turn the key on I didn't hear the normal sound of fuel pump .( I guess it's the fuel pump ) hum when I turn the key on all I get is the clicking of the brake failure. Hit the start button and it might try to start but then die. Sure could use some help if anyone out has any input
Fuel-Pump should be heard (for 1 or 2 sec) after you turn the ignition (if Kill Switch is in the start position AND if bike is in neutral with side-stand up).

Next, I would look into the LEFT fuse-box, most forward fuse is the MOTRONIC+FUEL PUMP (15 amps). Make sure to use an Ohmeter to prove that there is continuity in the fuse - I have seen fuses with micro failure not visible to the eye.

If you can hear priming (when side-stand interlock or kill-switch is not active), but you still cannot get it to start, the symptoms of sudden death you have described sound a bit like the fuel hose broke loose inside tank. With these K1200 being 10 to 16 years old, recently with ethanol in fuel, there has been an increased rate of damaged hose in fuel tank (2 hoses attached to filter and pump inside tank).

If still no fuel priming at ignition ON, next I would look at the fuel-pump connector located under the fairing, just behind the fuel-tank quick connectors. With ignition OFF and fuel-pump connector undone, you can test pump directly using a 12 volts power source (or your own battery). Brown-wire is negative, the other is positive - need to connect right as you do NOT want to run pump in reverse. Just run it for 2 to 3 seconds to confirm it is working when run separately.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2014, 8:43 pm Thread Starter
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Fuel pump check

Ok found no fuse blown,check fuel pump on right side under fairing brown neg / other wire pos pump would not run. .. Moving forward should I just purchase a fuel pump for a 2003 k1200gt or should I purchase additional parts fuel filter etc.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 11th, 2014, 6:11 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
Ok found no fuse blown,check fuel pump on right side under fairing brown neg / other wire pos pump would not run. .. Moving forward should I just purchase a fuel pump for a 2003 k1200gt or should I purchase additional parts fuel filter etc.
All K1200 having "brick" engine use the same fuel-pump (K1200RS, K1200LT, K1200GT 2003-2005).

You can order an equivalent fuel-pump for less than the BMW pump here
http://www.beemerboneyard.com/16141341231n.html
BeemerBoneYard has been serving the BMW community for used and new replacement parts for many years - very good/honest people to make business with.
You can also buy used pump from EBAY, but this is a crapshoot as many of these parts bike have sit for a long time and unknown mileage in many cases.

BUT... before you order a pump, I would empty tank, inspect and measure continuity of wires outside and inside of tank (same wires that goes into pump). These pump are quite reliable and I have seen a few cases of damaged wires. If bike was unused for a long time with old gaz, then the pump will often die before its normal time. You could be lucky and only have a wire or connector problem. Worth looking into before ordering a pump. Will also tell you condition of 2 short fuel-hoses (into filter) before ordering anything else

If you work with tank still on bike, the tank has to be really empty. BUT if you work with tank removed and leaned a bit on the opposite side, you can still do the job with about 1/5 of the tank remaining.

If in fact you do need to order a pump from BeemerBoneyard, then order a new fuel filter and ask them to include 2 of these good screw-on clamp they include with outside tanks quick-connectors. You do NOT want to re-use the one BMW put at the factory a 2nd time. They can be removed with small pliers, thin screwdriver, bending and cursing ;-)

The only bad thing about the screw-on clamps is that they require a good feel for how tight you need so that hose does not slip over filter with pressure. The BMW one-time use clamps do not have this problem when you have proper pliers.

IMPORTANT: if you have a USA specs K1200RS with Charcoal-canister under seat, you need to be careful when you reconnect the 2 small vent hoses inside tank, If you reverse these, you will have the water drip from cap into canister and the fuel vent going into hose to the ground (opposite of what it should be). Blow with air gun into the small hole on top, near fuel-cap and check that it goes to hose to the ground (hose is between frame and transmission case behind footpeg).
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Aug 11th, 2014 at 8:16 am.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2014, 4:29 pm Thread Starter
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Fuel pump

We'll after all that one of the jumper I was using was broken . I removed fuel pump bench tested it and it ran fine . So I guess I will change the fuel filter out . Since there is 50,000 miles . Hoses look good. And replace gaskets / O ring. And move on to the next thing any input. Or suggestions Thank You Aaron
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2014, 5:22 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
We'll after all that one of the jumper I was using was broken . I removed fuel pump bench tested it and it ran fine . So I guess I will change the fuel filter out . Since there is 50,000 miles . Hoses look good. And replace gaskets / O ring. And move on to the next thing any input. Or suggestions Thank You Aaron
You should have put a voltmeter or a small dash lamp across the connector on the loom side, turned the key on and should see 12 volts or lamp lit for a couple of seconds which is the pump prime. If no and you are sure you haven't knocked the engine cut switch you have to go back to the fuel pump relay in the relay box. If you stick your ear on the cover you might even hear the relay click for a couple of seconds. Keep remembering that key on only gives you volts for a couple of seconds then zero.

If the relay does not activate you go to its coil and see if that has or does not have 12 volts for 2 seconds at key on. If it doesn't, then the ECU is not delivering the pump voltage and you need to go deeper. Of course of you get the probes in the wrong place or use bad jumpers you will not diagnose anything so it is probably best to wire a couple of leads to a small dash lamp and use that for testing.



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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2014, 5:55 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
You should have put a voltmeter or a small dash lamp across the connector on the loom side, turned the key on and should see 12 volts or lamp lit for a couple of seconds which is the pump prime. If no and you are sure you haven't knocked the engine cut switch you have to go back to the fuel pump relay in the relay box. If you stick your ear on the cover you might even hear the relay click for a couple of seconds. Keep remembering that key on only gives you volts for a couple of seconds then zero.

If the relay does not activate you go to its coil and see if that has or does not have 12 volts for 2 seconds at key on. If it doesn't, then the ECU is not delivering the pump voltage and you need to go deeper. Of course of you get the probes in the wrong place or use bad jumpers you will not diagnose anything so it is probably best to wire a couple of leads to a small dash lamp and use that for testing.
VOX, AARON,
Assuming his pump does it fact works on bench, as VOX said maybe there is no priming and/or input signal to the pump.

As mentionned above by VOX, the Motronic-ECU will give priming signal when ignition is turned ON, If-and-only-if the fuel-pump relay does its job. Furtermore, even if priming sequence works, after engine starts to rotate (over starter or by itself), the pump signal is furnished by the hall-effect-sensor (ignition spark timing). So if hall-effect sensor is dead, you get no more pump signal after engine rotates.

In real life, history of these machines shows few failures of pump relays. About the same limited number of failure of hall-effect sensor, but they do happen once in a while..

Also, do not forget to check if engine temp light goes ON on the dash when you turn key ON (before start). In addition to the fuel-pump priming noise, the engine-temp red warning is the signal that the starter-side-stand interflocks is off. When starter interlocks is active (side-stand switch signal and not in neutral), there is neither (1) fuel-pump priming, (2) and neither engine-temp warning light.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2014, 5:58 pm Thread Starter
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Fuel pump

Ok fuel pump wire green / pos brown / neg used a volt meter red lead in the green black lead to battery. Turn key had 12 Vdc for a couple of second then dropped off. That's good right ?
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2014, 6:12 pm Thread Starter
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When I turn the key on the temp light is on and stays on on.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2014, 6:15 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
Ok fuel pump wire green / pos brown / neg used a volt meter red lead in the green black lead to battery. Turn key had 12 Vdc for a couple of second then dropped off. That's good right ?
YES, when you turn ignition ON, that is the priming signal for 1 or 2 seconds. That is not enough to start and run bike, that is just to pressurized the lines and fuel-rail.

After that priming, when engine rotates (under starter or by itself), further signal to the pump is furnished by the HALL-EFFECT-sensor, so you need to make sure this works. Not common to break down, but I have seen a few dead or defective HALL-effect-sensor that would create symptoms like: you are riding along normally and suddenly the engine dies (like if it ran out of gaz).

Unless you have a GS911 or access to dealer's diagnostic computer, the most simple way.to check HALL-effect sensor signal is rotating the wheel, in 6th gear, with bike on center-stand. See this video and MAKE SURE TO READ WARNINGS and instructions at bottom of video in text/comments area BEFORE you start with procedure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3j...mxII_LE-XJ1qzw

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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