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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2019, 12:53 pm Thread Starter
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k1200rs fueling problem.

Hi, im litle bit struggling to get my bike to run like it should the problem is this that someone alredy been there on the trotle bodys and readjustet them.
My qestion is on my k1200rs 1997 what are the base seting on the air adjustment screws on the throtle and how the TPS and what value should it hawe when i remove the TVA unit.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2019, 6:43 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kowal View Post
Hi, im litle bit struggling to get my bike to run like it should the problem is this that someone alredy been there on the trotle bodys and readjustet them.
My qestion is on my k1200rs 1997 what are the base seting on the air adjustment screws on the throtle and how the TPS and what value should it hawe when i remove the TVA unit.
Having worked on many K1200RS for 15 years AND having seen many problem / questions on two different K1200RS forums for the same period, I need to warn you of these facts before you embark on touching the throttle-bodies:
1) history has shown that most engine behavior problem are cause by other factors like clogged/dirty fuel-filter, bad fuel batch , dirty / clogged injectors, weak dying battery that does not accept or keep charge.

2) An important SENSOR that has caused many engine fueling problems in the past is the engine coolant-temp-sensor. In most cases the problem was self inflicted as the sensor was damaged during a clutch job (wire / connector was streched or damaged). This sensor is used by Motronic-ECU to adjust mixture in all conditions (from cold start to hot / running).

See this photo album to make static test using multi-meter (Ohm / resistance). Measurements are done with engine and ignition OFF. Test with engine cold in morning (about 2500 Ohms at 70 F , 21 celcius). Warm up engine, shut it down and check again: about 300 Ohms when temp gauge on dash is about on middle white line. When engine is very hot, on radiator fans startup, sensor should read about 180 Ohms.
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...zVu6FWt33uK0yb
Click on each photo and read attached text on right.

3) With age, another common issue has been the 4 high-tension spark-plug wires. They crack OR develop wear spots where they touch / rub on cylinder head (under the black plastic cover). This cause current leaks and causes misfires.

4) A good engine check-up including valves adjustments should be confirmed BEFORE you assume the Throttle-bodies (TB) need work. Of course, if you have proof the TB have been touched I can furnish some documentation I have based on my experiments on many TB (reverse-engineering the TPS and screws adjustments with real time data from GS911).

KEEP IN MIND you are on your own changing the TB settings as BMW and their dealers have never documented anything: their take on this is that you must buy a full throttle-bodies assy brand new at $US$ 1292 (calibrated at factory).

FINALLY: if you can get your hands on a GS911 , it would give me real-time data for your specific case. This can make remote troubleshooting a bit easier - of course nothing beats being on site but it is not always possible.

You should also BE MORE SPECIFIC about when / how does it run bad: COLD or HOT , at what RPM , does it have good pulling power at higher RPM... ??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Apr 10th, 2019 at 6:03 am.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 2019, 11:43 am Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help, first can You repost the photo album ( the link dont work)
The temp sensor on the block on the left of the bike reads about 250 ohms when the needle is about to touch the midle line.
My throtle bodys have been touch becouse i dont have the blue paint marks on the tps screws and one TB sync screw (the right one between 3 and 4 TB)

I dont know if it is correct but my air srews the big brass ones are srewd almost all the way in( just alitle bit out maybe 1/4 out)
My throtle intake rubber stubs (the rubber ones) are new and i dont have vacum leaks but my bike dont idle well the rps dont stay i one place.
And sometimes when i come to a red light the idle drops to about 800-900 rpm and then picks up again.
And last but no least my exhaust iss black and the exhaust gases smell terible like unburned fuel or to much fuel but the spark plugs are just about the right collor
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 2019, 5:51 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kowal View Post
Thanks for the help, first can You repost the photo album ( the link dont work)
The temp sensor on the block on the left of the bike reads about 250 ohms when the needle is about to touch the midle line.
My throtle bodys have been touch becouse i dont have the blue paint marks on the tps screws and one TB sync screw (the right one between 3 and 4 TB)

I dont know if it is correct but my air srews the big brass ones are srewd almost all the way in( just alitle bit out maybe 1/4 out)
My throtle intake rubber stubs (the rubber ones) are new and i dont have vacum leaks but my bike dont idle well the rps dont stay i one place.
And sometimes when i come to a red light the idle drops to about 800-900 rpm and then picks up again.
And last but no least my exhaust iss black and the exhaust gases smell terible like unburned fuel or to much fuel but the spark plugs are just about the right collor
OK... above is a bit more specific than your 1st post about the symptoms.

(1) For the Engine coolant temp sensor photo album link, it would appear they have change the security setting for viewing if you are not the owner of the album.
Try this link instead and let me know:
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/...0yb?source=pwa

(2) The 4 brass air-bypass screws exist only on early models Throttle-bodies. Around 1999 and later, they were removed. Given the compensation already built in this EFI system, my guess is BMW was concerned that shade-tree mechanics would upset the system playing with these. See attached photo for the look of later throttle-bodies with no screws.

Based on the above, they have never published any specs for these screws in their shop manual. HOWEVER, later model Throttle-bodies have an open vacuum passage of a specific size (with no screw restriction) - this would lead me to start with 1 full turn OUT from gentle close position. After this base setting, any change WOULD AFFECT ONLY IDLE and should be done using a 4 ports vacuum balancing gauges to balance each TB for smoother idle.

You should ALSO CHECK that each air-bypass Screw has a proper O-RING that is NOT damaged. Otherwise you are creating one more intake air-leak zone that will upset the EFI balance.


(3) Given the new info above on the symptoms, I would say you have an air intake leak. Without seeing this K1200RS and taking some real time data from GS911, any remote troubleshooting is quite difficult. HOWEVER, based on history of past problems and common wear of all rubber components of the intake system on these K1200RS, the probability of one or several intake air leaks is high.

During last 15 years I have fixed of few of these leaks AND on the other forum (I-BMW.com), we have argue with many owners who taught they had done a good job for checking for intake air-leak. THEY HAD NOT and eventually after much fiddling went back to replace all these rubber parts to fix their issue.

This is getting a bit long so I will post the parts list to check for intake air-leaks on the next post...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	K1200RS_Throttle_body_IDLE_AIR_SCREWS_Old-vs-New.JPG
Views:	55
Size:	184.9 KB
ID:	24295  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Apr 11th, 2019 at 6:22 am.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 2019, 6:17 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kowal View Post
Thanks for the help, first can You repost the photo album ( the link dont work)
The temp sensor on the block on the left of the bike reads about 250 ohms when the needle is about to touch the midle line.
My throtle bodys have been touch becouse i dont have the blue paint marks on the tps screws and one TB sync screw (the right one between 3 and 4 TB)

I dont know if it is correct but my air srews the big brass ones are srewd almost all the way in( just alitle bit out maybe 1/4 out)
My throtle intake rubber stubs (the rubber ones) are new and i dont have vacum leaks but my bike dont idle well the rps dont stay i one place.
And sometimes when i come to a red light the idle drops to about 800-900 rpm and then picks up again.
And last but no least my exhaust iss black and the exhaust gases smell terible like unburned fuel or to much fuel but the spark plugs are just about the right collor

... continued from my previous post...

On all K1200RS/LT engine, the intake rubber parts tend to create air-leaks after about 10 to 15 years of age depending on usage. The fact modern fuel contains about 10% of Ethanol on average (in North-America) has made this problem worse for all rubber and plastic components in contact with fuel (on all vehicles).

Any EFI systems will be upset by intake air-leaks. On the K1200 "brick-engine" platform, there are more "potential" air leaks zone than most owners had imaged the 1st time they dig into this. Here is the list with attached link from the MAX-BMW parts diagram. You can buy from any BMW dealer, I just like the way the parts fiche works at MAX-BMW web site.

1) Four Manifolds rubber sleeve and O-RINGs (see attached photo 1 and 2 for a typical hidden crack on these):
Part #5 in this diagram (goes between engine cylinder-head and throttle-bodies)
https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/Diagra...er=11611464820

With the above, you should also replace the 4 Orings below manifolds (item #3 in same diagram)

2) crankcase vent hose assy (see last attached photo for a typical hidden crack creating an air-leak):
Part #5 in this diagram (hose goes into throttle-bodies from top of crankcase)
https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/Diagra...er=11151465009

With the above, you also need to order 4 clamps (they are not reusable) that are not included in the assy hose above (item #6)


3) Small vacuuum hoses and connectors:
these are linked together on top of Throttle-bodies. If your K1200RS is US-Specs, you also have a vent valve solenoid attached at a junction leading to these 4 small vaccum hose. When searching for intake air-leak, this vent solenoid should be considered suspect and can be plugged for testing purposes (but do not plug end of hose leading to charcoal-canister under seat). Instead of paying dealer, these small vaccum hose can be found at a good auto-parts store.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	K1200LT_Cracked_tube_Throttle_body_rubber_1.JPG
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ID:	24301  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 2019, 6:47 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kowal View Post
Thanks for the help, first can You repost the photo album ( the link dont work)
The temp sensor on the block on the left of the bike reads about 250 ohms when the needle is about to touch the midle line.
My throtle bodys have been touch becouse i dont have the blue paint marks on the tps screws and one TB sync screw (the right one between 3 and 4 TB)

I dont know if it is correct but my air srews the big brass ones are srewd almost all the way in( just alitle bit out maybe 1/4 out)
My throtle intake rubber stubs (the rubber ones) are new and i dont have vacum leaks but my bike dont idle well the rps dont stay i one place.
And sometimes when i come to a red light the idle drops to about 800-900 rpm and then picks up again.
And last but no least my exhaust iss black and the exhaust gases smell terible like unburned fuel or to much fuel but the spark plugs are just about the right collor
FINALLY... if you want to base your diagnostic that you are 100% sure all intake air-leaks have been checked AND assuming you are convinced that your problem is TPS related, I have attached a PDF file so you can test and check the TPS unit, including correct base setting.

As I have mentioned in earlier post, once you go down this route to change the Throttle-bodies settings OR move the TPS, you are on your own... I have no control over you mechanical abilities ... what has worked for me might not work for you. If you mess something up, your only options will be EITHER:
- go to the dealer. They might tell you to buy a complete Throttle-body assy if they see you have no blue paint on some of these screws.

- buy a used throttle body assy cheap on EBAY and hope it was not touched / modified.

Although it took me only ONE DAY to write the first version of this document many years ago , the trial-and-errors to get to these findings took many days of testing (including Throttle-Bodies removal many times AND using a GS911 to gather data)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BMW_K1200_Throttle-Position-Sensor TPS (version 1-3).pdf (468.9 KB, 20 views)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 15th, 2019, 3:22 pm Thread Starter
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So i got an update on my problem.

1. got replaced all my intake rubber conection befor i started the post
- the 4 ruber intake manifolds
- 4 oring under the intake
- and all 8 orings at the injectors
ass i suspected there has been no leaks on on the intake (checeked witch smoke and propane) only leaks iv got are on the throtle shaft but nothing major
have checked also the breather hose for crack and leaks ( nothing there)

2. When iv been checking for vacume leaks i got the idea that the o2 sensor will pick it up and show on the graph on the oscyloscope, and to my suprise the o2 sensr was dead and flatlining at 50mv so it was seing the ECU it was marginal lean and dumping max fuel in the combustion chamber.
Luckyly got a spare o2 sensor and got it running

The fueling is ok now but my idle is not ideal sometimes it moves up to about 1150 rpm and i dont know now if the ECU i adapting to the new o2 senor or is there somthing wrong there.

My other qestion is about the small vacume hoses that conect all 4 throtle bodys, mine have 4 litle caps that block those ports. Must i have those vacume ports all conectet????

Oweral the bike runs better now bot not ideal.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 15th, 2019, 10:03 pm
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Sailor is on it and what he's telling you should be read carefully.

I messed with my '85 K100RS throttle bodies, searching for the faults he points out. I found none, but did adjust the wrong throttle screws, destroying what throttle synchronization I may or may not have had. The WRONG SCREWS are the little ones with the lock nut on them. DO NOT MESS WITH THOSE, whether they have paint or not.

I made a manifold vacuum tester using aquarium tubing and red ATF, but the manifold vacuum was off by enough that the ATF got sucked right into one cylinder. No damage done, but it put me off using that device. There were other issues including adequately damping the vacuum pulses. I then borrowed a really wizard level electronic balancer made for R-bikes (Harmonizer) and used that on pairs of cylinders to get somewhere back to near synch. Sadly, the guy who made the Harmonizer doesn't seem to have gotten around to producing one for four-cylinder bikes. I think there's a helluva market opportunity there...

Then I sold my two '85 K100RS's because I got a 2010 K1300GT. That is a whole 'nother story.

If you want to consider throttle body synch, go no further that rigging up a manometer of some sort and designate cylinder #1 (farthest forward) as the master cylinder. Hook up to cylinders 1 and 2, and set the manifold vacuum in #2 to match #1 as close as possible. Repeat for cyls 1 and 3, then 1 and 4. Check balance between 2-3 and 2-4.

It may not be possible to bring vacuum in all cylinders to match #1 on the first pass. In that case, lightly tweak #1 in the direction of whatever other cylinder is not synched, and repeat the 1-2, 1-3, 1-4 process and check 2-3 and 2-4.

This method should produce good results but ONLY if there are no other discrepancies in the system. You had such a discrepancy, the O2 sensor was busted, but you didn't find it until you were already "in there".

I have to emphasize that you MUST proceed on a rational and well thought out sequence, and only after eliminating all the other possible discrepancies before messing with throttle body synch in ANY manner. Just because you think they are off, doesn't make it so. Sometimes what you "think" is only rationalization of what/where you want to go.

As Sailor mentioned, if you screw the pooch on throttle bodies, it's very difficult (but not impossible) to get them back where they need to be.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 16th, 2019, 6:29 am
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Originally Posted by Honolulu View Post
Sailor is on it and what he's telling you should be read carefully.

I messed with my '85 K100RS throttle bodies, searching for the faults he points out. I found none, but did adjust the wrong throttle screws, destroying what throttle synchronization I may or may not have had. The WRONG SCREWS are the little ones with the lock nut on them. DO NOT MESS WITH THOSE, whether they have paint or not.
..
....

I have to emphasize that you MUST proceed on a rational and well thought out sequence, and only after eliminating all the other possible discrepancies before messing with throttle body synch in ANY manner. Just because you think they are off, doesn't make it so. Sometimes what you "think" is only rationalization of what/where you want to go.

As Sailor mentioned, if you screw the pooch on throttle bodies, it's very difficult (but not impossible) to get them back where they need to be.
I have done several Throttle-bodies on the K1200RS/GT "brick-engine" platform , so it is not impossible even if the dealers and BMW says so.
In my opinion, they say this because:
- at the factory, each body is balance with the 3 others using a static machine on a bench (vacuum and/or flow). This can be done on bike with a 4 cylinder vacuum balancers

- nowadays, every road vehicle has an emission certifications (Euro2-Euro3-Euro4 ..or.. EPA in USA) and tampering with any setting or sensor has to be limited "by law" (unless done as per the Shop-manual that says not to touch it ...)

HOWEVER as mentioned in my earlier post, it took a lot of trial-and-error, a GS911 for live data from sensors AND a base reference to compare with a "known good" Throttle-bodies assy. TPS, TVA (idle actuator) and throttle butterfly main idle screw all have a critical relationship.

Troubleshooting at a distance without seeing the bike myself is quite difficult. In addition, in the case of the OP (KOWAL), I feel a large language barrier - not sure what nationality he is but my guess is he is using a language translator to post his reply - certainly I can read him but I feel something is being lost...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Apr 16th, 2019 at 12:54 pm.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 16th, 2019, 7:38 am
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Originally Posted by kowal View Post
So i got an update on my problem.
..
....

My other qestion is about the small vacume hoses that conect all 4 throtle bodys, mine have 4 litle caps that block those ports. Must i have those vacume ports all conectet????

Oweral the bike runs better now bot not ideal.
About the 4 small vacuum hoses / connection:
by design the K1200RS/LT have all 4 small vacuum hoses balancing each other - NOT plugged with vacuum caps. Although I doubt that putting rubber CAP on each will change engine behavior much I HAVE NEVER TESTED SUCH SCENARIO.

The Euro specs K1200RS are built at factory as per my attached photo (you need 5 small pieces of vacuum hoses with 2 small junctions). The USA specs models are slightly different with these small 4 vacuum hoses leading into a fuel-tank vent valve AND a charcoal-canister under seat (as per EPA by law to recirculate the venting fuel vapor from fuel-tank)

Both methods above will work on any K1200RS (without any ECU change) as the fuel vent valve is just missing on Euro specs K1200RS/LT.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given your last post, I would also do this to help pinpoint the issues:
Do only one of these at a time and test before trying next one:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) With Ignition OFF, disconnect NEGATIVE battery post for 30 minutes. This will clear MOTRONIC-ECU memory for old adaptive settings. Careful when you connect back the Negative post as there are 2 large BLACK wires on the K1200RS negative battery post (not only one like some other bike)

(2) If the above does not improve your engine behavior AFTER 2 rides (at least 20 minutes with various RPM), you could also:
- disconnect the Oxygen sensor completely for a test ride (under seat) combined with another MOTRONIC memory reset above BEFORE the engine is started.

- Although the oxygen sensor by itself alone, has NO important effect on idle issues , riding with no O2 sensor signal should change the engine behavior as the ECU goes into another state. This might give us a clue about causes - assuming the symptoms / problem improve.

(3) close all 4 brass air bypass screws, BUT note how many turns for each as you do this. This way you can put them back the way they were after - if test is not satisfactory. Given that you may have air-leaks from shafts, this should reduce amount of air at idle slightly. These screws only exist on 1997 up until mid-1998 models.

Always reset Motronic-ECU memory for 20 minutes each time you try something new BEFORE starting the engine for a ride.

IMPORTANT for any modern EFI motorcycle with electronics: ALWAYS do any connect / disconnect of anything electrical ONLY while the ignition is OFF.

In case of doubts about the item being worked on, always disconnect the negative Battery pole before you do any electrical work. Do NOT play with Positive battery pole unless you need to remove the battery completely - if you need this then Negative pole must be removed FIRST and reconnected LAST.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Apr 16th, 2019 at 2:46 pm.
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