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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2019, 12:40 am Thread Starter
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Custom project, no spark

Hello,

I just joined this forum after reeding several topics in the past days as I have a '99 K1200rs. Only thing is; I got the bike as a not finished bobber/custom project. There is another tank on it with as far as i can tell the original fuel pump.
All wiring was loosend and ABS unit removed (cut away). When I got it it even wouldn't crank but got that solved.

Next step is to get a spark, but this seems to be some sort of difficult as I have a manual, but no electrical drawing to sort out the electrics. Currently it looks like tere is a condition missing in order to get the spark. As the bike was still in running condition before PO started dismanteling the bike I'm excluding the Coil as source of the problem for now. Focussing on the fact that the ABS was removed, fuel tank swapped and the wire loom was pulled apart.

I hope someone can help me, especially with the following questions;
1 Is there a condition for getting a spark in the ABS or fuelpump system?
2 Bike not on jiffy but main stand, is that a issue for sparking?
3 How can I bypass the fueltank for now? I just want to see the spark for now as i am taking it step by step, preferably without putting the fueltank on it.
4 Am I overlooking a condition?

Thanks in advance.
Lars (Netherlands)
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2019, 7:42 am
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Could be the sidestand switch interlock.I am trying to remember if sidestand switch also cuts the ignition?It certainly does cut the fuel pump.

Or the gear indicator switch if that has been hacked into?That is also part of the interlock and that one definitely shuts the ignition/spark.OEM setup is that with bike in gear on centerstand with sidestand up,the pump will still prime when turning on the ignition but "spark" is disabled until one pulls the clutch or put transmission in neutral.

Fuel pump should run briefly and prime the system with ignition On.Is that happening?

You'll need the Clymer manual if just for the electrical diagrams.There is also a sidestand switch test procedure in the Clymer.And a Hall sensor test etc....etc!

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2019, 9:17 am Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help! I will definitely check this tonight;-)
I do have a manual but it is a BMW manual, probably not the Clymer you meant. Can I get it on the web somewhere?

Priming of the pump is bit difficult, pump is installed in other "chopper style" fueltank, but looks like it is not "fueltight " (is that the correct word??;-)) yet. Is there a workaround to check this?
Pump has 1 power connector right? Or is the level switch also connected?

Thanks in advance!
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2019, 12:30 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleinelars1. View Post
Thanks for the help! I will definitely check this tonight;-)
I do have a manual but it is a BMW manual, probably not the Clymer you meant. Can I get it on the web somewhere?

Priming of the pump is bit difficult, pump is installed in other "chopper style" fueltank, but looks like it is not "fueltight " (is that the correct word??;-)) yet. Is there a workaround to check this?
Pump has 1 power connector right? Or is the level switch also connected?

Thanks in advance!
OK , you said K1200RS (1999) modified custom project... Troubleshooting AT A DISTANCE something than has been modified OR hacked into is not an easy task ;-)
Given these limitations, let me try:

(1) Of course it is easier to troubleshoot with fuel pump noise... However even if the pump OR tank is not connected, you can check for this 2 seconds priming sequence (after ignition is turned ON) using a simple DC Voltmeter. On right side, where the lower original tank was, there is a 2 pins BLACK Plastic connector (confirm 1 wire is Green/White (this is +) and the other is Brown (-). See 1st attached picture.

Install your Voltmeter ahead of igniton senquence, then watch display for 12 to 13 volts (Battery voltage) for 2 seconds just after you turn igntion ON. After this Voltage drops to Zero UNLESS engine is cranked over (or started).

(2) Another item to check: if the main harness OR the warnings on dash have not been messed with during the conversion, after ignition ON you should see the RED engine temp warning on dash (this stay on until engine is started). If this RED warning is not ON, then the starter OR EFI Computer are off-line. This means one OR multiple interlocks are active (either side-stand, Neutral, Kill-switch, Motronic EFI fuse....). See attached 2nd picture.

When any of the starter satefy interlocks are active, you may still be able to operate the Starter (with clutch lever pulled) but the EFI computer will NOT give spark signal - neither will it operate the injectors or fuel-pump.


(3) Assuming the main harness has not been too much damaged / modified , you will also find a 2 pins WHITE plastic connector near top of fuel tank (1 wire is Yellow/Violet and the other is Brown). This normally connects to fuel level sensor (float) but it is NOT critical for function of EFI Computer or the engine electronics. You can still run the engine without this plugged.


P.S.: CLYMER manual for k1200RS / K1200LT is available directly from AMAZON in most countries (CLYMER part number is M501 with various suffix depending on revision / updated version). It is more complete than the BMW factory service manual with a lot more photos and details.

The electrical diagrams of CLYMER are not perfect (about 95% OK) but certainly better than the BMW shop manual where there is none (the Germans think you do not need this in a Service manual - amazing !). However you can also buy a CD with a Windows based software from your BMW dealer to get all electrical diagrams from 1993-2008 models for about $US$ 50 This is BMW part number: 01797720399 and all diagrams are one same CD.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:00 pm.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2019, 2:46 pm Thread Starter
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quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
OK , you said K1200RS (1999) modified custom project... Troubleshooting AT A DISTANCE something than has been modified OR hacked into is not an easy task ;-)
Given these limitations, let me try:

(1) Of course it is easier to troubleshoot with fuel pump noise... However even if the pump OR tank is not connected, you can check for this 2 seconds priming sequence (after ignition is turned ON) using a simple DC Voltmeter. On right side, where the lower original tank was, there is a 2 pins BLACK Plastic connector (confirm 1 wire is Green/White (this is +) and the other is Brown (-). See 1st attached picture.

Install your Voltmeter ahead of igniton senquence, then watch display for 12 to 13 volts (Battery voltage) for 2 seconds just after you turn igntion ON. After this Voltage drops to Zero UNLESS engine is cranked over (or started).

(2) Another item to check: if the main harness OR the warnings on dash have not been messed with during the conversion, after ignition ON you should see the RED engine temp warning on dash (this stay on until engine is started). If this RED warning is not ON, then the starter OR EFI Computer are off-line. This means one OR multiple interlocks are active (either side-stand, Neutral, Kill-switch, Motronic EFI fuse....). See attached 2nd picture.

When any of the starter satefy interlocks are active, you may still be able to operate the Starter (with clutch lever pulled) but the EFI computer will NOT give spark signal - neither will it operate the injectors or fuel-pump.


(3) Assuming the main harness has not been too much damaged / modified , you will also find a 2 pins WHITE plastic connector near top of fuel tank (1 wire is Yellow/Violet and the other is Brown). This normally connects to fuel level sensor (float) but it is NOT critical for function of EFI Computer or the engine electronics. You can still run the engine without this plugged.


P.S.: CLYMER manual for k1200RS / K1200LT is available directly from AMAZON in most countries (CLYMER part number is M501 with various suffix depending on revision / updated version). It is more complete than the BMW factory service manual with a lot more photos and details.

The electrical diagrams of CLYMER are not perfect (about 95% OK) but certainly better than the BMW shop manual where there is none (the Germans think you do not need this in a Service manual - amazing !). However you can also buy a CD with a Windows based software from your BMW dealer to get all electrical diagrams from 1993-2008 models for about $US$ 50 This is BMW part number: 01797720399 and all diagrams are one same CD.
@sailor,
Thanks for your quick suggestions. I know, assisting from distance is very hard to do, and my poor English does no contribute to that. Nevertheless the details in your suggestions provide me with more details then I could wish for. I had to reach out to an international forum as the Netherlands is a small country, not many specialist here, let alone online on a forum like this. And my German is only good enough for ordering a beer so that wasn't an option either.
So, since the kids are finally at sleep I got myself some time to check your suggestions;

1 Fuel Pump.
I've connected my voltmeter to the power connecter as per described but during starting/cranking the engine got no voltage indication on the meter.

2 Instrument panel lights
The RED temp warning indication is NOT ON when ignition is switch on. Also Neutral indication on dash is NOT ON (gearbox is in neutrol for sure as the rearwheel spins)
What does come ON are the Battery, fuel level and oil pressure light.
So you're deffinitly right about the interlocks that are still present.
I've traced the 2 cables (Brown/pink and Green/Black) from the neutral light to the INSTRUMENT CLUSTER CONNECTOR 2, and from there both wires disappear in the cable loom. GR/BL goes to a connection with several GR/BL wires and the Br/Pink wire that goes to a 3 wire "intersection"from where 1 goes to a BLACK 5 wire/6Pin connector and the other one runs to a WHITE connector from where the collor changes in Brown/Black.

Side stand is not extracted but IN and kill switch is working as when not in center position engine wont crank so i assume it works.

3 tank level sensor Good to know these wires have no interferance in getting the spark back to life.

So if I am correct the first step is to ensure the Neutral light is back in business again. You can already feel the question comming; is there suggestions;-)
Supposed the EFI is not online, how can I check or re-establish this. Maybe some pins I need to check if they have 12V on them?

Tomorrow I'll see if I can get my hands on a Clymer manual or BMW CD.

Thanks again!
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2019, 4:05 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleinelars1. View Post
@sailor,
Thanks for your quick suggestions. I know, assisting from distance is very hard to do, and my poor English does no contribute to that. Nevertheless the details in your suggestions provide me with more details then I could wish for. I had to reach out to an international forum as the Netherlands is a small country, not many specialist here, let alone online on a forum like this. And my German is only good enough for ordering a beer so that wasn't an option either.
So, since the kids are finally at sleep I got myself some time to check your suggestions;

1 Fuel Pump.
I've connected my voltmeter to the power connecter as per described but during starting/cranking the engine got no voltage indication on the meter.

2 Instrument panel lights
The RED temp warning indication is NOT ON when ignition is switch on. Also Neutral indication on dash is NOT ON (gearbox is in neutrol for sure as the rearwheel spins)
What does come ON are the Battery, fuel level and oil pressure light.
So you're deffinitly right about the interlocks that are still present.
I've traced the 2 cables (Brown/pink and Green/Black) from the neutral light to the INSTRUMENT CLUSTER CONNECTOR 2, and from there both wires disappear in the cable loom. GR/BL goes to a connection with several GR/BL wires and the Br/Pink wire that goes to a 3 wire "intersection"from where 1 goes to a BLACK 5 wire/6Pin connector and the other one runs to a WHITE connector from where the collor changes in Brown/Black.

Side stand is not extracted but IN and kill switch is working as when not in center position engine wont crank so i assume it works.

3 tank level sensor Good to know these wires have no interferance in getting the spark back to life.

So if I am correct the first step is to ensure the Neutral light is back in business again. You can already feel the question comming; is there suggestions;-)
Supposed the EFI is not online, how can I check or re-establish this. Maybe some pins I need to check if they have 12V on them?

Tomorrow I'll see if I can get my hands on a Clymer manual or BMW CD.

Thanks again!
1) NEUTRAL: lack of neutral signal is not a major problem - this will not stop engine from running / starting AS LONG AS you pull the clutch lever. Of course we are assuming the clutch lever micro-switch has not been damaged / affected by many modifications on the main wire harness.

Although I have NEVER tried this, you may be able to fake neutral condition by jumping pins 1 and 5 together (1=brown , 5=Brown+Violet) on the gear-neutral switch connector from the main harness side. See attached picture number 1 and 2.


2) Lack of RED engine temp warning is THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE: this need to come on after ignition ON, otherwise no ignition and no fuel injection. The lack of neutral signal is not a large problem unless you lack BOTH neutral AND side-stand UP signal.

3) Lack of Side-stand signal BEING UP is easy to fake (if missing): see picture 3 for the side-stand switch testing method. From this, you can understand that it is possible to simulate sidestand UP signal by jumping Pins 1 and 3 on the main harness side (male pins).

ONCE all above is working, other possible issues are related to Hall-effect sensors (much less common problem), Starter Relay, Coil or wiring in between. Although not very common, it is not impossible they have damaged / modified badly the main harness to Motronic EFI computer. But these are to be tested last as they are more difficult to evaluate.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2019, 5:24 am Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
1) NEUTRAL: lack of neutral signal is not a major problem - this will not stop engine from running / starting AS LONG AS you pull the clutch lever. Of course we are assuming the clutch lever micro-switch has not been damaged / affected by many modifications on the main wire harness.

Although I have NEVER tried this, you may be able to fake neutral condition by jumping pins 1 and 5 together (1=brown , 5=Brown+Violet) on the gear-neutral switch connector from the main harness side. See attached picture number 1 and 2.


2) Lack of RED engine temp warning is THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE: this need to come on after ignition ON, otherwise no ignition and no fuel injection. The lack of neutral signal is not a large problem unless you lack BOTH neutral AND side-stand UP signal.

3) Lack of Side-stand signal BEING UP is easy to fake (if missing): see picture 3 for the side-stand switch testing method. From this, you can understand that it is possible to simulate sidestand UP signal by jumping Pins 1 and 3 on the main harness side (male pins).

ONCE all above is working, other possible issues are related to Hall-effect sensors (much less common problem), Starter Relay, Coil or wiring in between. Although not very common, it is not impossible they have damaged / modified badly the main harness to Motronic EFI computer. But these are to be tested last as they are more difficult to evaluate.

I will check this tonight again. They PO did no change a lot, only removed ABS unit and some related wires. I can make a short list of some wires that have been cut. e.g. there is 1 fuse removed and wires that belong to it from the right fuse box (Starboard Side;-)).
I will jump the side stand and Neutral tonight, see what it brings us.

Checked for the Clymer manual in Holland, problem is all have delivery time of 10-14 days....so need to find alternative that is faster or so.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2019, 1:02 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kleinelars1. View Post
I will check this tonight again. They PO did no change a lot, only removed ABS unit and some related wires. I can make a short list of some wires that have been cut. e.g. there is 1 fuse removed and wires that belong to it from the right fuse box (Starboard Side;-)).
I will jump the side stand and Neutral tonight, see what it brings us.

Checked for the Clymer manual in Holland, problem is all have delivery time of 10-14 days....so need to find alternative that is faster or so.
Update: just came back home and checked for the side stand switch and guess what: itis not installed on the side stand!? So there is no switch and no cable the be found anywhere.
Where does the side stand switch connect to? Can I make the jump somewhere else?
Quickly bypassed the Neutral and that light now comes on
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2019, 2:33 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleinelars1. View Post
Update: just came back home and checked for the side stand switch and guess what: itis not installed on the side stand!? So there is no switch and no cable the be found anywhere.
Where does the side stand switch connect to? Can I make the jump somewhere else?
Quickly bypassed the Neutral and that light now comes on
1) About the "Neutral Gear position" switch: once you resolve other issues (like side-stand) this one can even be disconnected completely and the engine will start with clutch pulled in (clutch pulled is NOT a requirement when the neutral switch is working OK)

2) About Side-stand switch: look in my post above where I show a photo of the rear sub-frame under seat with neutral switch connector. Just right of this, attached to same frame black tube, you have the 3 wires Side-stand switch. The main harness wire along the frame for this switch is about 6 inch long, so look for a black (male pins) connector that is the mirror image of my earlier picture of the female side of the same switch. Method to jump this already posted as notes attached to photo (need ONLY to connect WHITE and BROWN wire with jumper).

Of course, YOU KNOW it is NOT SAFE to ride without a side-stand switch in good order... as you know very well it is there for a good reason...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Aug 15th, 2019 at 2:39 pm.
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2019, 3:54 pm Thread Starter
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Did some searching, asked a friend to have a second look but just can't find any 3 pin connector with a W/B/R colored wire.
Do you happen to know where these wires lead to, so I can jump them at the ECU or at a relay or so?

Yes, I want to install a side-stand switch again later, as soon or later I will eventually forget it somehow...with all risks involved. But for now stll aiming for that first spark;-)
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