Making Metal - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 2020, 9:42 pm Thread Starter
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Making Metal

Finally got around to changing the oil on my '02 K12RS (58kmi) after purchasing it last spring. Found this little guy clinging to the inside of the oil filter access cover.




It didn't attract to a magnet so I presume it is alloy. I then took the next step and dropped the sump cover. Found this huddled under the screen of the oil pick up:



There are a few (maybe 6) more bits of metal in there, none as large as the first discovery above. All but 1 are just slivers, not much thickness to them. The black goop appears to be RTV material, probably not relevant to the metal issue. No sludge/paste in the sump at all. Separated the metal from the RTV and this is what I was left with, plus the first piece (not shown):



Not sure what to do next, so I'm turning to the experts. No idea how long these have been collecting in the sump. For that matter, I have no idea when the oil was changed prior to purchase. I did retain the K&N filter and am planning to cut it open and see if it is retaining anything, but beyond that, what should my next step be? Not interested in a tear down; spent most of last summer replacing the clutch so I would like to enjoy the fruits of that labor for a while.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 2020, 11:00 pm
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Alloy maybe, but could also be stainless and by the looks of those pics Iíd say an oil change is VERY overdue. Lucky for you itís not a Ď98 or you would likely be in trouble. I guess itís fair to say that anything metal found in the oil is not good, however I would add fresh oil and give it a run for a few hours to get the oil up to full operating temp before dumping it. This will also help to rid the engine of residues of old oil but it is important to strain it out while hot. Strain it though a pair of your ladies finest silk stockings and see what you catch. Alternatively, the best strainer from the kitchen draw will work perfectly. If the oil is clear of debris, add fresh oil (I bet what you strain out will be black already). If there is still metal debris in the strainer I would repeat with fresh oil and check again. Also get rid of the k&n filter and put in an oem filter or similar aftermarket unit (canít recall who makes the oem filter right now) Probably to put your mind at rest, you could strain the oil again after a few hundred miles or more and see whatís happening. Depending on what you find you could probably add the oil back.
BTW, That was a windup on the silk stockings...

2002 K1200RS Owned from new. Pacific Blue of course. Suspended on Ohlins. 182,000kmís
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 2020, 12:24 am
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If its not magnetic it could be anything loose anywhere shaving up against the case casting I guess ...
guess the risk here is if whatever loosens more when will it be a catastrophic 'all stop'? (& how fast are you going to be going at that point...)

Just trying to think where there are moving parts in the K engine that could come incrementally loose - maybe others can correct me, but I can only think of the bolts holding the starter sprag clutch together & the conrod caps? Would recommend pulling the crankcase cover at least & having a v. good look over. YMMV!
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 2020, 11:29 am
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Oil pressure check! With a gauge!

I must say that I did find a sliver that looks like the bigger one on the pic albeit smaller.

Coincidentally to my Sprague clutch acting up some.Two three? times in 2018 so I took some action.
I ran engine cleaner through....parked for the winter and took off the sump.Sludgey some but no metal bits.Just the last of the pesky rubber bits that were coming out once in a while with the used oil! I think that someone left an oil filter seal in there way back then.Bigger rubber bits looked like rubber shavings from such a seal and corresponded in width

Anyway.....28,000 kms later, Sprague is I'd consider fixed,no metal flakes in the oil or rubber bits!

Oil pressure is right up where it was 250,000 kms ago.And so is compression!

Idiot oil pressure light spec is 5-8psi.Engine runs at? 10 times that or 10psi/1000 rpms.

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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 2020, 11:30 am
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For Engine blocks made from Aluminum this is common.

Same thing happened to me on a couple of my bikes and my Toyota Avalon.
I typically screen the oil whenever I change the oil due to how I store the used oil.
I had the same concern as you so I actually analyzed the alloy on a Scanning Electron Microscope.

The peices were small in nauture such as the one you point to in the pic and appear to be a chip of aluminum that was machined at some point of manufacture. It finally broke loose or was flushed to the sump.
If the three instances I analyzed the debris it was a Aluminum Alloy commonly used on castings.
My opinion is don't worry about it.

Now if you changed the oil in the rear drive and found a magnetic piece of debris this large. You most likely have something to ponder.

Hope this helps.

Joe
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 2020, 9:38 pm Thread Starter
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Ok, good. That all sounds reasonable. I'll start with the oil flush and report back.

I'm pretty sure the filter I have is Mahle. It seems they were pretty highly rated but, if someone has a more preferred brand, I'm listening.

Oil pressure takeoff is the one at the pump? Anyone happen to know the fitting size?

One last thing: Is there any point in checking the timing chain tensioner/chain guides? IIRC, chain slap was not uncommon in M42 engine cars, which is very similar in design to the K12.

Many thanks.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 27th, 2020, 12:34 pm
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Yes oil pressure pick up is at the pump.12x1.5? I am not 100% sure my gauge is permanently mounted for now 10 yrs and memory does fade.But I should have the adapter to 1/8 npt in my HF oil pressure gauge kit.Bought separately....I'll dig it up later and measure.

Oh....when in there remove the fastener on the oil pick up.Not super critical but the Oring sealing the tube onto the block was pretty dried up on my bike.

Tensioner etc...! Maybe????Maybe why you found RTV in the sump? Someone fixed the typical cover leak? Hopefully they followed the sealant application procedure/plan and DID NOT plug the oil feed to the tensioner?

OEM sealant is whitish! Black is....suspicious of previous work.I only use Loctite 518.Anaerobic flange sealer.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 27th, 2020, 3:33 pm
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12x1.5 to 1/8npt confirmed!There you go,from a gauge manufacturer:

https://www.autometer.com/electric-t...o-m12x1-5.html

Me don't like the price.....got mine at an hydraulic shop in steel with Dowty seal for a couple bucks.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 27th, 2020, 8:46 pm Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by H96669 View Post
".... oil feed to the tensioner..."
Great. What does THAT look like?
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old Jan 27th, 2020, 9:44 pm
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Clymer?Service manual?...under timing chain cover removal and installation?Sealant application "plan" is there and the do not apply sealant there warning.Any signs of RTV around the cover?

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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