1999 K1200RS Misses and vibrates when Warmed up - Page 3 - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 26th, 2020, 12:18 pm Thread Starter
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If you don't have the Clymer,I'll scan it tomorrow and send it out via email but I'd certainly prefer you read out of your own copy if just for the pictures?
ANS: Yes I have the Cylmer manual and opened to page 287 - Hall-Effect Senors.

Don't worry too much about the general engine health now that you confirmed it is the updated cold fractured conrods.87-88s are the ones prone to seize up but maybe some early 99s came with that engine?Not yours!
ANS: WHEW thx.

Fuel injectors? Toss them aftermarkets in the garbage where they belong! Send your OEMs in for a cleaning....they'll do all them tests for you and will return them w/pre and post cleaning specs!Feel free to post the balance sheet!
ANS: OK I saw a shop here near Richmond VA, DC? that advertised cleaning. Thought it was $60.00 but have saved place where Beech had his done.

A pulser? Some old injector....pressurized fuel supply?Good start for a DIY flame thrower...!
ANS: Understand, will follow specific instruction for any testing.

O2 sensor?Most probably bad!Silicone maybe but the heater function is probably out of specs.If so O2 will have to rely on exhaust heat to bring the tip to 1600F the temp at which the O2 will operate.That can take up to 15 minutes and the readings may not even be stable at that.Slow erratical up/downs,some flatlining in between on the GS911 screen is what will show.Long term effect will be whitish deposits on the spark plugs and potentially the valves faces!Still happy with my NGK,faultless for 2yrs(?)and no more whitish deposits on my plugs.
ANS: OK, so have NTK 25542 in cart and just waiting for fund transfer to PayPal before ordering this week.

Now a functionning O2 heater function can be checked by ear.Start bike, idle and listen.At the 1.30 minute mark, that is one minute/thirty seconds give or take a few depending on ambient, the O2 heater will have brought the tip to 1600F and the O2 will kick in or per the correct definition "close loop".Just at that point one ear will detect a change/dip/pick up of the idle.No need for that software froufrou to tell me that.
ANS: OK will run today and check.

O2 sensor totally disconnected? Doesn't cause too many issues,mine ran fine but not enough miles 100? to check fuel economy.I'd assume it would drop significantly as most with a dead sensor have reported such a drop.
ANS: Fuel Economy had already dropped badly (To about 30 I think I remember).

Anyway, thx for all the detailed info from Sailor and yourself. You've both dumped a good 20 years of expertise on me so I had to create a spreadsheet to detail it all and plan testing. Can't upload Excel so you've have to take my word on it. I will report details of test here.
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 26th, 2020, 1:52 pm
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O2 sensors heater function test is connect Ohmeter at the two white wires.That is the heater circuit!

Ohms readings:

New NTK 25542: 1.8 Ohms

Defective Bosch 15727 universal: 3.2 Ohms

Defective NTK factory OEM : 4.4 Ohms

So I made my new NTK go defective.Add about 1.5 Ohms resistance into the heater circuit with, in my case a small light bulb and heater function will defect.

From what I can see.....most universal sensors are 5-10 Ohms.Not appropriate for the Motronic and even for other vehicles? There are a lot of discussions out there where DIYers replaced factory O2s with generic universals just to have a check engine light come on shortly thereafter.Fault code, as unlike the Ks, many factory ECU software will read that one: DEFECTIVE O2 HEATER CIRCUIT.

I also have a Bosch part number.Right plug and wire long enough and applicable to some BMW vehicle with Motronic but Bosch is rather difficult as to providing specs and many times will have different part numbers for the same part and crossreferencing with them can take hours.And also only available overseas? Bosch LS3854

Even BMW has 4 part numbers for the Ks LT included?As far as I could see then and but for subtle differences in wiring length they are all the effing same!

Most Autoparts selling NTK, now NGK/NTK can get the 25542.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 26th, 2020, 7:57 pm Thread Starter
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Hi H96669

OK understand that the NTK unit you suggest is the one to get.

Only do I need it?

Ran test today and here is what I have from the Motoscan app:

Live Data - Cold to warm

Batt Volts - 13.76/13.51 variable
Intake Air Temp C - 6.80/3.71
Lambda Sensor Volts Bank1 - 446mZv/54-910mv back and forth - Heater working and came on quick (about 1 minute)
Ambien Air Pressure - 101.42kPA/101.43kPA
Engine speed - 1800 at start (was very high)/then between 1000-1050 but had to push down on stop between TB 1 and 2
Injection duration - 198-205/1.66ms
DKP (TPS) - 4.20/1.94
Spark Angle - 9.49-10.55/10.20
Closing time - 3.84/4.35
Dwell Angle - 39.38-41.48/26.02
Engine Temp C - 54.8/103

No DTC codes displayed.

Tested Pipe Temps
Cyl 1 - 430-460F
Cyl 2 - 530-560F
Cyl 3 - 540-570F
Cyl 4 - 279-578F

Fuel Pressure reading

Running - 54 PSI
At Shutdown - 48 PSI
After 5 mins - 48 PSI
After 10 mins 46 PSI
After 14 mins 44 PSI
After 20 mins - 44 PSI
After 30 mins 41 PSI
now 0 PSI - Must be getting some leakdown where gauge attaches to rail.

Did not take Compression test when warm
Did not hook up Nonometer

Thanks Dan
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 27th, 2020, 7:48 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H96669 View Post
O2 sensors heater function test is connect Ohmeter at the two white wires.That is the heater circuit!

Ohms readings:

New NTK 25542: 1.8 Ohms

Defective Bosch 15727 universal: 3.2 Ohms

Defective NTK factory OEM : 4.4 Ohms

So I made my new NTK go defective.Add about 1.5 Ohms resistance into the heater circuit with, in my case a small light bulb and heater function will defect.

From what I can see.....most universal sensors are 5-10 Ohms.Not appropriate for the Motronic and even for other vehicles? There are a lot of discussions out there where DIYers replaced factory O2s with generic universals just to have a check engine light come on shortly thereafter.Fault code, as unlike the Ks, many factory ECU software will read that one: DEFECTIVE O2 HEATER CIRCUIT.

I also have a Bosch part number.Right plug and wire long enough and applicable to some BMW vehicle with Motronic but Bosch is rather difficult as to providing specs and many times will have different part numbers for the same part and crossreferencing with them can take hours.And also only available overseas? Bosch LS3854

Even BMW has 4 part numbers for the Ks LT included?As far as I could see then and but for subtle differences in wiring length they are all the effing same!

Most Autoparts selling NTK, now NGK/NTK can get the 25542.
Pierre,
Thank you for your experience on this. I have noted "almost" similar values from 3 sensors (including one with "universal" connectors). In my experience, the 2 to 3 Ohms BOSCH models will NOT cause any issues, but anything above this may cause delay in "close-loop" mode for the EFI system. As you have posted, this is mainly an issue when started from cold.

HOWEVER, at this point we are getting a bit off track with the original problem of this tread ;-) The O2 sensor HEATER function is NOT critical for these older Motronic-EFI: in most cases it will cause minor issues and no fault codes is logged (unlike modern car EFI and some more recent motorcycles).

About the OP problem: As long as the O2 sensor signal values are still fluctuating fairly rapidly between the low range (0.1 to 0.2 volts) and the high range (0.8 to 0.9 volts) an old sensor is probably OK. As posted earlier, It will normally take about 1:30 to 2 minutes to go into this loop when started from cold. GS911 allows you to see the data in graphic mode in "real-time" - I do not know what are the features of MotoScan in this regard.

As a simple "low tech" test , anyone can unplugged the O2 sensor (under seat) and try a test run on the road and see if engine runs better. Even without any code reader, if the engine runs better without the O2, then for sure this O2 sensor is to be replaced. The logic behind this is that the EFI system knows what do in absence of an O2 sensor signal (default mapping) - however the same EFI system can be really confused if it receives wrong / intermittent values. OF COURSE, there is no point in trying this UNLESS we make sure the engine is also in proper state of tune (air-leaks, air-filter, fuel-pressure , ignition/spark OK....).

The OP may want to read this page from the GS911 designer to learn the basics of O2 sensors - note they do not mention the HEATER circuit as this optional and does not exist on very old O2 sensors of 1980s or early 1990s (cars or motorcycles):
https://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/lambda

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 27th, 2020, 12:24 pm
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Fuel pressure bleed down test is a probable fail!You could carefully dead end the pump/internals against the gauge and see if loss is inside the tank.But pump deadended against a gauge/bypassing the regulator, that's about 85psi.DO NOT do that test!

If pressure/fuel is seeping from the rail/Orings etc at ~7psi/half hour as you say,you'll see and smell fuel somewhere!If not I'd say injectors seeping.Cheap Chinese still?You know....I did my research then....they have been tested by specialists!Garbage...! OEMs will also seep when/if contaminated,that may be or may not be the problem BUT you may have coincidental problems be they vacuum leaks,dirty injectors, etc....!

Fueling 101: Cleaned and balanced injectors.Stop right there if you contemplate the pulser,all it is going to tell you is that at that milleage your OEMs most probably need cleaning and that the Chinese are/were a waste of money!

Not so sure about the lowish value of the O2 sensor? 54mV? O.O54V? But now seems to work?

Is that Booster plug still on there?I will not restart my bike/GS911 and compare data till you remove it!

TPS voltage check ASAP, stop pissing around with the software for now!And of course the Hall Sensors test.Clymer isn't that clear but 1-4 Hall sensor test is the second one, they start with the 2-3.

Hall sensor cover off, put engine at TDC and verify cam timing?Or did you do that when checking/adjusting valves?Easy to skip a cam tooth and as I intentionally did that on the exhaust,I didn't find an interference.But I certainly did not leave it like that....!

Odd compression results?I'd reverify that! A seepy fuel injector may drop enough fuel in the combustion chamber to wash off cylinder walls lube and drop the compression?Warm up engine....depressurize fuel system and try again?I did have odd readings this year,was pretty cold when I put the bike to rest after a wash.Start....2 minutes max to get it in the shop so sure ran rich for that 2 minutes.Cold compression readings were not as I like to see.10 minutes run time fixed that up.

High idle and having to push down the rail?Maybe TPS needs checking? Should I go turn mine up once again or is what I said earlier about that not enough?

Hum....sure looks like there could also be some binding of the throttle plates?Maybe even a loose one? I wasn't the first to find a loose plate you know and yes some binding of the plates from? Well I talked about that earlier and that's exactly why I updated my TBs to the 04s specs.

All electrical connectors verified good including the ECU?

Put that scanner away for a while!
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 27th, 2020, 8:09 pm Thread Starter
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Fuel pressure bleed down test is a probable fail!You could carefully dead end the pump/internals against the gauge and see if loss is inside the tank.But pump deadended against a gauge/bypassing the regulator, that's about 85psi.DO NOT do that test!
ANS: Ok Again I did replace the filter and have pictures of it. I did see some pressure release when I opened the gas cap at one point. May make sense to pull the pump again and check the internals. Canister removed so vent is to open air.
If pressure/fuel is seeping from the rail/Orings etc at ~7psi/half hour as you say,you'll see and smell fuel somewhere!If not I'd say injectors seeping.Cheap Chinese still?You know....I did my research then....they have been tested by specialists!Garbage...!
ANS: Yes “Chinese garbage” so please be patient with me as I get the OEM’s cleaned and back.

OEMs will also seep when/if contaminated,that may be or may not be the problem BUT you may have coincidental problems be they vacuum leaks,dirty injectors, etc....!
ANS: ok could be why the problem original began.

Fueling 101: Cleaned and balanced injectors.Stop right there if you contemplate the pulser,all it is going to tell you is that at that milleage your OEMs most probably need cleaning and that the Chinese are/were a waste of money!
ANS: UNDERSTOOD – They are going in the garbage where they belong!!!

.Not so sure about the lowish value of the O2 sensor? 54mV? O.O54V? But now seems to work?
ANS: Yes the O2 seems to be working fine now according to the scan.

Is that Booster plug still on there?I will not restart my bike/GS911 and compare data till you remove it!
ANS: No I forgot to pull it before test (DUH) but will before testing or reporting back!!

TPS voltage check ASAP, stop pissing around with the software for now!And of course the Hall Sensors test.Clymer isn't that clear but 1-4 Hall sensor test is the second one, they start with the 2-3.
ANS: OK I will not run any scans or report anything back from them. Only results of test as documented from you folks.

Hall sensor cover off, put engine at TDC and verify cam timing?Or did you do that when checking/adjusting valves?Easy to skip a cam tooth and as I intentionally did that on the exhaust,I didn't find an interference.But I certainly did not leave it like that....!
ANS: So I followed documented (from document I pulled from web). And set TDC. I double tied the cam gears to chain and was extra careful (as outlined) to make sure there was no movement (Have pictures). Marks did not move!!!

Odd compression results?I'd reverify that! A seepy fuel injector may drop enough fuel in the combustion chamber to wash off cylinder walls lube and drop the compression?Warm up engine....depressurize fuel system and try again?I did have odd readings this year,was pretty cold when I put the bike to rest after a wash.Start....2 minutes max to get it in the shop so sure ran rich for that 2 minutes.Cold compression readings were not as I like to see.10 minutes run time fixed that up.
ANS: Ok will do another test as outlined here.

High idle and having to push down the rail?Maybe TPS needs checking? Should I go turn mine up once again or is what I said earlier about that not enough?
ANS” No I have the procedure download here and will follow closely.

Hum....sure looks like there could also be some binding of the throttle plates?Maybe even a loose one? I wasn't the first to find a loose plate you know and yes some binding of the plates from? Well I talked about that earlier and that's exactly why I updated my TBs to the 04s specs.
ANS: Ok understand and after some testing the next step will be to pull the tank and get to the TB’s. Tupperware is off but haven’t yet went back in.

All electrical connectors verified good including the ECU?
ANS: No will do this after next test and when I pull the tank. t
Put that scanner away for a while!
ANS: Clearly understand. I was hoping it would report my problem and I could just repair/replace. I clearly know now that “That’s not how it works”.
And Pierre, actually have read a couple articles on the Lambda working but will read yours well.

Again folks, please bear with me. 37 years in IT but backyard Mechanic!! I’ll get it though!!!!
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 27th, 2020, 9:25 pm
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No worries.....been a very long time since I worked as a mechanic.

One tought? I had some problems with freshly cleaned injectors getting contaminated quickly!Fuel filter output was dirty from some black dust.And I had just replaced the pump without cleaning the fuel lines and rail.My mistake that I won't repeat.Clean and clean again!

My fuel pressure gauge now has an inline filter attached, a cheap Napa 3032 that apparently can be used on Ks but not rated FI and 20microns so I personally won't put that in my fuel tank.OEMs only!

Old pump was sitting there for years bugging me.I cut it open a few of weeks ago.Brushes were worn down and so was the commutator.Gasoline goes right through them motors,they run in gasoline.

My somewhat confirmed now suspicion is that the fine carbon dust and copper from the commutator may not get fully filtered out and go beyond the filter contaminating the injectors.

BMW filters only filter down to ~15 microns and probably not on the first pass either.As per Bosch particles of less than 10Microns can and will contaminate injectors.Little filter basket at an injector inlet? That's about 30 Microns and that if the basket mesh hasn't failed as shown in Mr.Injector videos?

Cut open the old fuel filter and inspect the outlet.

Pump check? Not much to do but tap the outlet onto a tissue?That's what my FI specialist did when I showed it to him.Nothing came out......I had already done that at home and some black and some brownish copper dust had come out!Mind you the pump was also a tad noisy on prime.My replacement cheap Bosch 69222 is very quiet,I barely hear it prime and had been faultless for? Quite a while......!

Forget the O2 for now.....once everything else is to specs I'll give you a little run test for it! Another "by ear"!

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Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 2020, 1:04 pm Thread Starter
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One tought? I had some problems with freshly cleaned injectors getting contaminated quickly!Fuel filter output was dirty from some black dust.And I had just replaced the pump without cleaning the fuel lines and rail.My mistake that I won't repeat.Clean and clean again! My fuel pressure gauge now has an inline filter attached, a cheap Napa 3032 that apparently can be used on Ks but not rated FI and 20microns so I personally won't put that in my fuel tank. OEMs only! BMW filters only filter down to ~15 microns and probably not on the first pass either.As per Bosch particles of less than 10Microns can and will contaminate injectors.Little filter basket at an injector inlet?
ANS: Stop calling me out and if you haven't caught on yet I'm thrifty (Cheap) and installed the cheap NAPA filer into the tank!! But, the tb's were removed and cleaned in kitchen and all new lines and quick disconnects installed. Then the crankcase vent was installed on the rail and cheap injectors added -- See Pictures.

No pump check was done - Mine makes normal "noise" when I turn on key. It's working anyway. Here is my suspect fuel gauge set up. I know folks put them inline with the QD's. That replacement Bosch 69222 sounds good if needed.

Ok on the O2 Sensor.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2020, 6:49 pm Thread Starter
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Ok

Had to "really" fix the ground problem with the FJR1300.


So I've unplugged the BoosterPlug and plugged in the OEM harness directly into the airbox.

I hooked up the Vacuum Gauge to to the TB's. And took reading cold//hot:
Cyl 1 - 2 & 3 1/2 - 4
Cyl 2 - 1 1/2 & 3 to 3 1/2
Cyl 3 - 4 & 5 to 5 1/2
Cyl 4 - 2 1/2 & 3 3/4

--------------------------------------------------

Took compression reading warm and they were worse thane cold. See pictures

--------------------------------------------------

Took Pipe Temps
Cyl 1 - 460 range
Cyl 2 - 560 range
Cyl 3 - 600 - 660 range
Cyl 4 - 640 - 660 range

--------------------------------------------------

Note didn't touch idle but again high (around 1800 Cold and 1200 -1300 I estimate) when hot after 1 1/2 minutes or when O2 sensor kicked in.

-------------------------------------------------

Note - charging my endoscope so I can take a peak in the cylinders.

Dan
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 2020, 3:44 pm Thread Starter
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Hello Folks

Pulled the TB's today and performed a Bench Test. Note I only have a digital MM so that's what I've used to take the measurements.

First Resistance Track - Pin 1 to Pin 2 - MM set to 2K Ohms

> 1675 OHM's closed
> 940 OHM's MAX at 23 Degrees

2nd Resistance Track - Pin 2 to Pin 3 - MM set to 2K Ohms
> 1160 at WOT

Attached pictures for:

Top of TB's after Air Box removed
Valvoline Shown on Top of TB's
Crankcase Vent Tube - Clamp was a bit loose and a touch of oil on outside
TB Bottom Boots
TPS

Next I will check wiring closely and Test the HALL SENSOR.

Dan
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