1999 K1200RS Misses and vibrates when Warmed up - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 2020, 3:12 pm Thread Starter
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1999 K1200RS Misses and vibrates when Warmed up

Purchased when recovering from accident with my 2001 BMW K1200rs in 2014. Bike currently has 44734 miles on it.

Bike has been registered and insured but not on the road for 2 years because it is not running properly. Appears to run ok when cold but seems to have a "miss" and "vibrate" when throttling up when warm. Riding same thing. Fuel is fresh.

Work done to find out what is wrong. Note: Bike is running exactly as it was when problems began 2 years ago and any of this work was done.

Replaced Fuel Filter, added quick disconnects and fuel pressure gauge. Fuel pressure running about 53 PSI.

Removed Throttle bodies and cleaned (without removing IAC or TPS) so blue marks are still where factory placed them. Did not replace the intake boots but cannot find any vacuum leaks while running and testing with propane tank. I did move the throttle spring between 3 and 4 to relieve the heavy throttle pull these bikes are known for.

Ran new fuel lines to rail and back to quick disconnects.

Cleaned the oil gunk off top of engine and replaced the crankcase vent tube with new part from BMW.

Replaced Coil (twice), Plug wires, plugs, and did the valve adjustment (replacing three valve buckets due to them being tight). Replaced Fuel Injectors

Plugs look ok (Not wet and light Brown). Installed new Air Filter.

Performed the Carbon Caster removal along with vacuum pump and capped off the TB's.

Had performed various test on the IAC, TPS. HAL, Air Intake Sensor, Engine Temp gauge (under TPS). Not sure of accuracy of these test. Used regular timing light on plug wires while running but not sure test was accurate. Purchased and installed the BoosterPlug.

Also pulled the O2 Sensor and bench test where results showed it was ok. Have not replaced it though.

Performed Compression test (Last today 03/22/20). Cold
Cyl 1 - 165
Cyl 2 - 158
Cyl 3 - 150
Cyl 4 - 155

Finally I've purchased the Motoscan App and run on the bike. I am receiving a trouble code for IAC (1506) when first running bike and it disappears after warm up (Probably when no long being read).

Vitals from Live Data on Motoscan after warm up and at Idle..
Volts Batt - 13.35
Volts Intake Air Temp - 3.63
Air Intake Temp - -3.8c
Engine Temp - 105.0c
Lambda - 892.72mV (org test did so regular fluctuation 85-901mV but not seeing that type of fluctuations in recent test).
DKP (understand this is german for the TPS) - flucuates between 2.26 and 2.59 degrees
Engine speed - 1200 - 1350 RPM

Hot at 3500 RPM
Volts Batt - 13.27
Volts Intake Air Temp - 3.61v
Intake Air Temp - -3.3c
Lambda - 892.72mV
DKP - 7.11 degress
Engine Temp - 103.8c
Engine Speed - 3500 RPM

Temps on header pipes after warmup seem low on 1 and 4.

Cyl 1 - 279 - 470F
Cyl 2 - 570 - 670F
Cyl 3 - 520 - 620F
Cyl 4 - 284 - 349F
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post #2 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 2020, 8:08 pm
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O2 sensor? Should oscillate in the 200-800mV range give or take a few mVs.And if the heater function of the sensor is functionning the oscillations will start after 1minute30seconds from starting a cold engine.

NTK 25542 is a direct replacement, unlike some universals it does have the right heater resistance specs and plug&play.

Intake air temp? Are you working in the cold outside or is that the Booster plug fooling the ECU into richening the fuel/air ratio?

Fuel injectors replaced? With freshly cleaned and balanced injectors?Unless you know how to bench test them with a pulser for spray pattern/flow and atomisation I'd send a set for ultrasonic cleaning.$15-20.00 ea.The only time(s) I had rideability issues like yours,misses and vibrations,were dirty fuel injectors.So and because I can now recognize the signs I sent this set to the cleaners last year and got rid of the buzzes before that got worse.

Also very hard to see about vacuum leaks on them with propane.Manipulating/inspecting the rubber is the way to go.And some Red Rubber grease to keep them pliable and long lasting like mine at 293,000kms.And my red rubber greased distribution hose never failed altough I eventually replaced it with DIY copper at about 2-3 times the milleage others typically fail.

Plastic intake stubs screwed into the head? Known to warp and cause vacuum leaks.That is if some corrosion hasn't found its way toward the Orings sealing the stubs?

Do you have a 4columns vacuum manometer? Might show leaks or an unbalance of the TBs.Is all the blue paint still there at the rail adjusters?There has been attempts at balancing the TBs back then.Most unsuccessful......!DO NOT attempt that procedure unless everything else is to specs.

Throttle valve actuator(TVA) or idle switch (gs911) so IAC(Motoscan) faults is usually,as I can introduce that at will on my bike,caused by throttle not all the way back to the stop.Tight throttle cable or no play?Looser springs?And the throttle bodies shaft/bushings may be worn and butterflies binding and at the same time that shaft wear may bring about a vacuum leak.I replaced my TBs years ago with the 04s with Stainless shaft/bearings instead of bushings and successfully balanced them.

Warm up that motor some and redo the compression checks.They should be pretty even at ~165.

And can you pull the oil filler plug,rotate the engine if just to see the no2 connecting rod fasteners? If the updated engine with the cold fractured connecting rods the conrod bolts are Torx bolts.If the early engine prone to break conrods the conrod end is held by studs and you'd see a nut.If an earlier engine I'd check oil pressure and make sure it isn't seizing up.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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post #3 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 2020, 9:19 pm Thread Starter
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2 sensor? Should oscillate in the 200-800mV range give or take a few mVs.And if the heater function of the sensor is functionning the oscillations will start after 1minute30seconds from starting a cold engine.
Ans: This is what Motoscan was originally reporting but it was oscillating between about 85 and 901mV

NTK 25542 is a direct replacement, unlike some universals it does have the right heater resistance specs and plug&play.
Ans: Thanks I'll look into that O2 sensor.

Intake air temp? Are you working in the cold outside or is that the Booster plug fooling the ECU into richening the fuel/air ratio?
Ans: It in my garage here in Richmond Va, and so its generally warm and extra warm this week. Booster plug lead is tape along side under fairing.

Fuel injectors replaced? With freshly cleaned and balanced injectors?Unless you know how to bench test them with a pulser for spray pattern/flow and atomisation I'd send a set for ultrasonic cleaning.$15-20.00 ea.The only time(s) I had rideability issues like yours,misses and vibrations,were dirty fuel injectors.So and because I can now recognize the signs I sent this set to the cleaners last year and got rid of the buzzes before that got worse.
Ans: yes they are new injectors and I can hear then coming on. They are aftermarket and possible suspect (I have originals in box here I can send to have cleaned).

Also very hard to see about vacuum leaks on them with propane.Manipulating/inspecting the rubber is the way to go.And some Red Rubber grease to keep them pliable and long lasting like mine at 293,000kms.And my red rubber greased distribution hose never failed altough I eventually replaced it with DIY copper at about 2-3 times the milleage others typically fail.
Ans: Ok I will pull the "Top" offf again and get down the the TB's and probably replace intake boots and o-rings.

Plastic intake stubs screwed into the head? Known to warp and cause vacuum leaks.That is if some corrosion hasn't found its way toward the Orings sealing the stubs?
Ans: Yes, originally I only inspected and cleaned oil/grease off them when cleaning the mess on top of the motor and they looked good (DUH) so I installed the TB's back on them and tightened them down. Again I should probably replace.

Do you have a 4columns vacuum manometer? Might show leaks or an unbalance of the TBs.Is all the blue paint still there at the rail adjusters?There has been attempts at balancing the TBs back then.Most unsuccessful......!DO NOT attempt that procedure unless everything else is to specs.
Ans: Yes I have a Yamaha FJR1300 I purchased (because the BMW down) and it came with a 4 column Nanometer. I'll put that on the TB's and run it.

Throttle valve actuator(TVA) or idle switch (gs911) so IAC(Motoscan) faults is usually,as I can introduce that at will on my bike,caused by throttle not all the way back to the stop.Tight throttle cable or no play?Looser springs?And the throttle bodies shaft/bushings may be worn and butterflies binding and at the same time that shaft wear may bring about a vacuum leak.I replaced my TBs years ago with the 04s with Stainless shaft/bearings instead of bushings and successfully balanced them.
Ans: Throttle cable not tight - Loose where the end goes into the TB's plate. I'll address that also.

Warm up that motor some and redo the compression checks.They should be pretty even at ~165.
ANS: Ok hope they come up when I test warmed up.

And can you pull the oil filler plug,rotate the engine if just to see the no2 connecting rod fasteners? If the updated engine with the cold fractured connecting rods the conrod bolts are Torx bolts.If the early engine prone to break conrods the conrod end is held by studs and you'd see a nut.If an earlier engine I'd check oil pressure and make sure it isn't seizing up.
Ans: yes, I just went in there with an Endoscope and it appears the caps are on there with "Hex" head bolts with (MX) stamped into them "I believe". But I'll check to make sure oil pressure is good (no light from the sender).
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post #4 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 2020, 10:50 pm
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Anyone mentioned the hall effect transmitter? The three wires to it tend to go south and this is 20 years old now. You can find it on MAX bmw parts fiche "engine electronics"

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tire guy, I'll mount your tires.

Last edited by Beech; Mar 22nd, 2020 at 10:56 pm.
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post #5 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2020, 12:49 am
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I see your Intake Air Temp is quite low, can the reported temp possibly be correct for Richmond VA at this time? If the IAT is reporting that cold, the ECU will probably richen the mixture, possibly to the point where the engine misfires from too-rich mix. Add a Booster Plug, and you can't be certain where the ECU thinks it is. Maybe take the Plug out of the system for a time...

Your Motoscan O2 sensor reading would seem to be okay, as well as the undescribed bench test you ran on it.

You say your plugs are visually okay... When my KGT ran far too rich, I could look down the exhaust and see the cat glowing faintly red, even daytime, and it smoked a good bit and would not rev easily. The plugs, when I replaced them, did not seem to show that richness.... though it was clearly the problem.

DO NOT mess with the throttle bodies any more than you absolutively, posilutely have to. DAMHIK! Although a 4-channel manometer "should be all you need" after I went onto the screws of my K100RS it never ran any better, probably worse. Sold my two K100RS, have a K1300GT and alles gut, but throttle synch is for well experienced persons who will be responsible for their actions. Running as a test with the manometer connected MIGHT tell you about a vaccuum leak, but please be careful how you proceed.

I think a loose throttle cable is okay at idle where all throttle should be resting on the stop(s) independent of the cable (as long as the cable isn't tight at idle) but you should verify the cable is pulling the throttle valves equally at higher rpms - this could be your entire problem.
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post #6 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2020, 9:36 am
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Intake air temps seem suspect and those cylinder temperatures do not seem right. If you have the old injectors and can swap them back in, I would try that and look at those cylinder temps again.
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post #7 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
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Air intake temp: That is what a Booster plug does, fools the ECU into thinking temperatures are lower than ambient thus richening the mixture.May just be temporary.....ECU may adapt and switch back to leaner providing the O2 sensor works correctly?

That O2 seemingly stuck on reading rich?If the injectors aren't atomizing the fuel it won't all burn so O2 may get stuck on reading rich.Or if one uses any silicone products on intakes reassembly?Silicone is poisonous to O2 sensors.

Aftermarket injectors as in cheap copies of the Bosch?Highly suspicious,there are plenty of discussions (and tests)about them.DO NOT use them.If one locks up at speed as talked about in some car forum, that will shut fuel to that cylinder and lean it.And as the fuel does cool combustion chambers......no fuel from a locked injector may destroy the affected cylinder rather quickly at speed!

If one wants cheaper,just about any Ford product from the 80s-90s runs the same injectors albeit with a slightly different pintle cap and part number but still and as per my fuel injection specialist the same injectors.In any case my bike did not have any problems running with Ford (Bosch)injectors.Just me not liking anything Ford related so replaced later with BMW OEMs

OP has a fuel pressure gauge! Any pressure bleed down over time with system primed,ignition Off? A specialist would recommend 1/2hr and no bleed down.I go for 1hr and even overnight,plenty of residual pressure left in my tight system the next morning!

One can also remove tank,rail injectors,reattach everything on an outdoor bench, power the pump/open injectors with a 9V battery, or better a pulser,and inspect spray pattern etc.Carefully......at full pressure them injectors will shoot about 8'.

Or a "power balance test". Pulsers are now rather cheap.~5% inbalance on one injector and another one sticky,not flowing to spec and not atomizing and bike was buzzy/vibey at the 4500-5000rpms range.Off to the cleaner/FI specialist and now smooth.And still smooth 20Ks later.

Pulser, cheap and effective:

https://www.ebay.com/p/6011254750


Pull away test? 5-6th gear rolling at 2000rpms and then crank up the throttle?Worst case scenario with contaminated injectors is the bike will stall so one should be ready to pull the clutch quickly.Other than that with correct fueling/clean injectors it will pull smoothly from 2000rpms and you'll be speeding in a few seconds.

And general running at low gears speeds/rpms? Should be smooth and the surgey feelings that some have at times proclaimed as normal for the Ks and that a booster plug or such was the cure?Not normal my K with the 296 ECU....clean injectors/no vac leaks/balanced TBs does not surge and does not need a booster!

Hall sensor is a possibility but they hardly ever fail on the Ks.And the wires unlike some earlier BMWs are (should be) the upgraded NiChrome?I'll look at my spare later. Mind you I'd pull the cover,someone may have been in there and squeezed the wires and(or)changed the timing? Or reinstall the plate lining up them halfmoon notches as I have seen done.That is 0 degree static lining them up.

And then you could do a sensor signal test with the rig (9V battery/LED) described in Clymer,toss some heat at the sensors and see if that makes it fail as most sensors will fail when hot?

Timing (static) can also be checked with that same battery/Led rig providing one marks the timing plate as I did.

High idle? 1200-1300 at engine temp up there(105), that's too high.Should be at ~1000 give or take a few!High idle on a K is usually vacuum leaks.BTW my replacement TBs had about your milleage or maybe less but came with dried out and cracked manifolds.Cracked just by the clamp so very hard to see unless unclamped and manipulated.

Vacuum leaks are usually shown as an oily residue around the leak but that can take a while to show.Or a blurb of the engine if slightly shutting then applying throttle.Particularily annoying when applying throttle in a curve!

TPS running angle looks OK, 2.6 is within normal idle running but at 1000rpms.Easy to adjust/check with a Voltmeter especially so with TBs off.And it is basically a potentiometer also easy to check the tracks.

Basic setting with TVA(IAC) removed and reading voltage at pin no1 is 0.34V.But I remember changing it up to 0.42v(?) and my bike instantly ran rough.Idle went up and ran like shit so not even a test ride and I quickly put it back to normal.Just as a test someone was proclaiming that doing such a change had fixed his fueling problems. Not so as it turned out later......aftermarket fuel injectors and some adjustable fuel pressure regulator were the problem.


Jean(Sailor) has a good write up about the TPS.I still have the hard copy but my PDF/Word(?) is gone.I hope he and family are OK over there.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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post #8 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2020, 5:56 pm
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There you go, Testing(and adjusting) a TPS from Sailor in PDF form.You can do the voltage check and adjustement in place,one has to carefully insert a small wire ( 28ga) at pin1 then snap the connector back in place.

Loosening/tightening the back screw requires a special tool if just to reach the screw.Special tool is for me 6" of steel brake pipe slightly bent and a torx wrench stuffed at the end.And some touchy feely to engage the fastener!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...88OZo1VdApbHhp

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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post #9 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2020, 6:34 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H96669 View Post
...
.....

Jean(Sailor) has a good write up about the TPS.I still have the hard copy but my PDF/Word(?) is gone.I hope he and family are OK over there.
Pierre,
I hope all is fine with you in your fairly quiet neiborhood ;-)
We are doing OK here - being somewhat retired, not having to go to work everyday AND living in small town, makes this ordeal more manageable.

About the Technical Document for the TPS of the K1200 "brick-engine": in 2019 I have published a more recent version compare to the one you have. The list of changes / improvements are on the last page. Most of the changes / additions are pretty minor - some have been done to help clarify questions that had showed up in other forums (including the K1200LT forum). See attached PDF document...

I also have many notes about dismantling / cleaning up / balancing / rebuilding the 4 throttle-bodies assy.
HOWEVER I have no intention to publish these as:
1) These notes would need to be organized, cleaned up , photo added to clarify certain points,

2) I am also very concerned that anyone touching all these screws protected with blue paint (like I did) might not be able to put things back together perfectly. Not you of course, but the average "shade tree" mechanic ;-)

3) These notes are based on my own personal experience of doing many removal, change adjustements. live test run. I had to compare / confirm using 3 different Throttle-body assy. BMW does not publish any method or specs - however they will gladly sell you a complete throttle-body assy perfectly setup with TPS + TVA for $US 1300 (non-cruise) or $1400 (model with cruise-control). Anyone could buy many used TB-assy on EBAY for half of this. If you have the ability to remove / replace - you are bound to get a good one eventually...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf BMW_K1200_Throttle-Position-Sensor TPS (version 1-3).pdf (468.9 KB, 22 views)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 96,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Mar 24th, 2020 at 6:33 am.
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post #10 of 55 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2020, 8:24 pm
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Thank Jean saved on the pocket computer!....I'll print that one up!Lots of time to read and replace my early oil stained copy.

Yes please let's not say anything about synchronising TBs.Altough I did mount my mercury columns balancer as per my usual yearly checkups,nothing needs touching so my Red paint shall remain imtact!
Columns are stable....no bouncing around that could indicate other problems such as fueling/vacuum leaks etc.....!

Attempting a balance if to compensate for other more common problems without adressing them first is a very bad idea!Very bad! But.....been there done that!2016 at ~160,000kms? Ouch....that long ago? Now at 293,130kms and runs like a top.

Yep.....fairly quiet,village pics look deserted on Farcebook and but for groceries/liquor everything is closed.I am good.....lots of food and TP,disinfectants etc.... I can hide for another couple weeks.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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