'09 clutch does not work in an '08 - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 3rd, 2009, 10:12 pm Thread Starter
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'09 clutch does not work in an '08

Long story short: the '09 clutch will not work in an '08, but there is an updated clutch w/ new part #'s for the '08. We'll see if it solves the clutch squeal.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 3rd, 2009, 10:44 pm
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Details? Part numbers?

I had a new clutch put in my '07 in August. It started squealing within a week and less than 2K miles. Sigh.

Also, two '09 demo bikes I've ridden have both had squealing clutches. Not as bad as the earlier bikes, but still there.

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 4th, 2009, 12:33 am
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I wonder if it is simply a problem with the new clutch slave and a different actuator rod length? I have a clutch on my workbench I'm waiting to put together. And I'm trying to see which direction is the best way to go.

'06 K1200R- in pieces
'73 Honda CB500F- slow but fun.
'77 Yamaha XS 750 triple- kinda

Last edited by JCW; Oct 4th, 2009 at 1:00 am.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 4th, 2009, 1:20 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCW
I wonder if it is simply a problem with the new clutch slave and a different actuator rod length? I have a clutch on my workbench I'm waiting to put together. And I'm trying to see which direction is the best way to go.
I was talking to a guy yesterday and his KTM uses different thicknesses of gaskets (which once crushed gives you a bad mike area to come up with for a sub) on their slave cylinder to control the pushrod freeplay. The anodized coating came off the piston in a swirl pattern and it was leaking mineral oil into the engine with each pull of the lever. KTM prices their piston with O-ring at $100, and the piston and slave unit together at $135 which seems cheap in comparison to a BMW one.

Since he borrowed it and broke it, it's his dime now. Says he's glad it wasn't a BMW he borrowed.


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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 4th, 2009, 1:25 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCW
I wonder if it is simply a problem with the new clutch slave and a different actuator rod length? I have a clutch on my workbench I'm waiting to put together. And I'm trying to see which direction is the best way to go.
That sounds right. The clutch and associated oil pump gear went in fine, but couldn't get the actuator to work properly. Appears to need all different parts (slave, actuator, etc) and the new clutch cover as well. They put my old clutch back in and are waiting on the updated '08 clutch. Sorry, I do not have any part #'s, but the BMW regional service rep thought the '09 would work fine and only after the service manager drilled down did he find the updated '08 part #'s. And to top it all off, if the '09's are still squealing, is it reasonable to hope that the updated '08 clutch will be quiet? Time will tell.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 4th, 2009, 11:55 pm
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According to BMW's webETK

For the US K1200S,

Clutch cover housing has two part numbers- 11147707394 replaces 11147707304 no date specified. Second apparently replaces the first and IS interchangeable.

Clutch lamellar package (discs and inner hub)- For bikes prior to 3/2006
21 21 7 699 628 replaces 21 21 7 690 529 no date specified. Then 21 21 7 723 198 replaces 21 21 7 699 628 no date specified.

For bikes after 3/2006- 21 21 7 709 459 replaces 21 21 7 699 629 no date specified.

Why 3/2006?

Looks like before 3/2006 the thrust adapter (slave cylinder push rod) measured 22.5mm- 21 52 7 680 648

After 3/2006 the thrust adapter measured 72.05mm- 21 52 7 702 448 replaced 21 52 7 703 488 no date specified

Slave cylinder measures 32mm- 32 72 7 695 220 replaces 21 52 7 692 372 no date specified and there is no distinction which thrust adapter or lamellar pack is used.

Even more interesting is this...

Clutch housing (or basket)- 21 21 7 716 131 replaces 21 21 7 680 451 no date specified. HOWEVER, a new basket 21 21 7 723 197 replaces 21 21 7 716 131 BUT ONLY IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE NEW OIL PUMP SPROCKET 11 41 7 716 119

So those of you looking to get just the oil pump sprocket might be doing it wrong. It requires BOTH the new basket number and the new oil pump sprocket.


For the K1300S, the part numbers are all different

Cover for clutch- 11 14 7 714 011
Lamellar package- 21 21 7 719 693
Clutch housing- 21 21 7 705 399

Interesting the Bush for the clutch was replaced- 21 21 7 705 393 replaces 21 21 7 680 454 and utilizes this needle bearing 21 21 7 680 465 (same needle bearing, different bush than the K1200S)

Output clutch cylinder measures 34mm (vs 32mm on K1200S)- 21 52 7 719 262
Thrust adapter measures 72.1mm (vs 22.5 or 72.05 on the K1200S)- 21 52 7 714 017

Oil pump sprocket- 11 41 7 716 119 (same as the new spec K1200S)


WTF does this mean...

Here's what I would do---

Since the needle bearing on the clutch is the same on both, I'm assuming both clutch housings will fit the stock K1200 bikes. So I'd go with the K1300 housing but remember to replace the oil pump sprocket with the new spec.
The lamellar package is what determines the length of the thrust adpater so I would get the K1300 lamellar package (clutch pack) and order the 72.1mm k1300 thrust adaptor.
Here's where I'm a little uncertain. I would order the k1300 slave cylinder too, just to get an easier clutch feel and make sure all the parts are compatible. Now whether this requires a new clutch cover k1300, I don't know???

K1300 clutch housing 21 21 7 705 399 - $938.29
must be used with oil pump sprocket 11 41 7 716 119 - $121.19
lamellar clutch package 21 21 7 719 693 - $815.03
72.1mm thrust adapter 21 52 7 714 017 - $44.84
34mm clutch slave cylinder 21 52 7 719 262 - $185.06
Possibly also the cover clutch 11 14 7 714 011 - $402.65

Total of $2104.41 without the clutch cover, $2507.06 with cover. (Prices from RealOEM.com)

Who knows if these parts are available to the general public yet?

My guess why DavidS' did not work is that his clutch pack was a pre 3/2006 utilizing the shorter 22.5mm thrust adapter. It was so short (22.5mm v 72.1mm), it would never had been able to press on the new clutch pack.

'06 K1200R- in pieces
'73 Honda CB500F- slow but fun.
'77 Yamaha XS 750 triple- kinda

Last edited by JCW; Oct 5th, 2009 at 12:02 am.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 5th, 2009, 5:53 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meese
Details? Part numbers?

I had a new clutch put in my '07 in August. It started squealing within a week and less than 2K miles. Sigh.

Also, two '09 demo bikes I've ridden have both had squealing clutches. Not as bad as the earlier bikes, but still there.
Ken, you probably know more than anyone how much this has been discussed in this forum.
Im curious if they replaced your oil gear sprocket. My first clutch replacement squealed like a pig within a couple of thousand Ks, the second one they replaced everything in there including a thinner oil pump gear and 6000ks later its still quiet,

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 5th, 2009, 9:46 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadicool59
Ken, you probably know more than anyone how much this has been discussed in this forum.
Im curious if they replaced your oil gear sprocket. My first clutch replacement squealed like a pig within a couple of thousand Ks, the second one they replaced everything in there including a thinner oil pump gear and 6000ks later its still quiet,
In the BMW parts catalog, it specifically states that the new oil pump sprocket should be used with the new clutch basket. I hope they read this and did both for him.

'06 K1200R- in pieces
'73 Honda CB500F- slow but fun.
'77 Yamaha XS 750 triple- kinda
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 5th, 2009, 10:17 am Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JCW
In the BMW parts catalog, it specifically states that the new oil pump sprocket should be used with the new clutch basket. I hope they read this and did both for him.
Yes, the oil pump sprocket for the '08 has male/female knobs/holes for engagement, the '09 uses bars/slots. The problem was getting it to engage using the '08 actuator/slave/etc. I have no idea of the '09 clutch housing will mate to the '08. I doubt that it is pre 3/2006 as the bike is an '08 purchased in September of '08. Sorry that I do not have more info, but this is a warranty deal and I did not get a lot of info other than they put my original '08 clutch back in and they are ordering the updated '08 clutch and sprocket.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 5th, 2009, 12:02 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS
Yes, the oil pump sprocket for the '08 has male/female knobs/holes for engagement, the '09 uses bars/slots. The problem was getting it to engage using the '08 actuator/slave/etc. I have no idea of the '09 clutch housing will mate to the '08. I doubt that it is pre 3/2006 as the bike is an '08 purchased in September of '08. Sorry that I do not have more info, but this is a warranty deal and I did not get a lot of info other than they put my original '08 clutch back in and they are ordering the updated '08 clutch and sprocket.
Great info! Thanks!

'06 K1200R- in pieces
'73 Honda CB500F- slow but fun.
'77 Yamaha XS 750 triple- kinda
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