Question about the servo brake bleeding. - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 2010, 12:07 pm Thread Starter
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Question about the servo brake bleeding.

Does anyone know if the servo assisted brakes on the <2007 bikes has the master cylinder connected so that fluid gets all the way down to the front calipers?

From my understanding, it appears those units have two separate circuits so it can't: i.e. Master to the servo or ABS, and then another separate circuit from the servo or ABS down to the caliper?

I'm trying to figure out if I can pressure bleed from the calipers up to the servo instead of doing that funky funnel thing that screws into the servo unit along with the possibility of breaking off the old plastic hose fitting things on the servo that cost $50 (or more) for a pair. Or maybe using that hose into those fittings as a filler instead of the funnel contraption and bleed using the servo?

There has to be an easier way.

Tia.


Mack
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 2010, 1:09 pm
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If there was an easier way, I would imagine the dealers would know about it, HA HA!, just kidding, then they couldn't charge for 4 hours labor!

From my readings on the web, for 07 and earlier the very nature of the assisted, integrated abs means there is no direct fluid connection, requiring you to bleed those circuits separately. Not hard, just time consuming.

Interestingly, I had just ordered the funnel from beemerboneyard when I realized I have an 08 and don't need it as MY circuits ARE linked and I can bleed right through. Go figure.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 2010, 3:36 pm
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You are correct in your thinking. The fluid in the master never gets to the calipers. I don't recall if your system is linked but if it is, there are 6 seperate circuits that need bleeding in the system. At least that's how my 06 KR is with linked and servo brakes.

James

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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2010, 8:38 pm
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Hall of Wisdom discusses the brake bleeding procedure for the 2002-2005 K1200RS/GT bikes. Same system on the 2005-2006 K1200S/R/GT before the switch to the newer ABS. It covers how the system works, which may help answer your question(s).



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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 19th, 2010, 9:41 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razel
Hall of Wisdom discusses the brake bleeding procedure for the 2002-2005 K1200RS/GT bikes. Same system on the 2005-2006 K1200S/R/GT before the switch to the newer ABS. It covers how the system works, which may help answer your question(s).
Thanks, but that doesn't look anything like the 2006 K1200GT. I also doubt if one could get that $40 Beemerboneyard Mini-Stan funnel in the 2006 K1200GT either that is shown in other instructions I found on the web (IBMR ??). The upper fairing pretty much blocks access to the top area of that servo-ABS unit and the inner one is close to the fork/frame for a funnel to screw into.

Only thing I learned today is the two reservoir caps on the ABS unit that have a small (and hardened) hose on them go into a Y-connector and vent directly outside and under the bike. I thought that long hose I see under the bike was a tank vent, but it is a brake fluid reservoir vent for the ABS-servo unit. That long hose into the servos is open to outside air and dirt! On the R1200 series, the two hoses go into a container and don't vent to open air like the GT does. Seems like a dumb idea on a $2,500 unit that is open to contamination whereas the R series isn't?

Oh, those little caps require a 8mm hex head (allen wrench) to unscrew. The hose bib on the caps should not turn while unscrewing the caps. You have to hold it steady else it will revolve and hit the wiring connector and snap off. Little plastic part is $55 for a pair.

I need to figure out something other than the Mini-Stan funnel thing, or get one and saw it in half so it will fit with a hose between the cap and the funnel.

Bunch of 7mm bleeders on that ABS unit too, counted maybe 6 on it if I recall. Front wheel looks like an 8mm. The instructions elsewhere show some bent 7mm wrench to get to the bleeders which may not be an issue on this bike's unit as none are recessed where that bent wrench is used.


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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2010, 3:47 pm
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I imagine you've already seen this but isn't your abs system similar to the one in this document? http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/service_abs3.pdf Wouldn't pulling the farings and gas tank give you access to the top of the abs for the mini-stan?

James

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 20th, 2010, 7:48 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbait
I imagine you've already seen this but isn't your abs system similar to the one in this document? http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/service_abs3.pdf Wouldn't pulling the farings and gas tank give you access to the top of the abs for the mini-stan?
Yep. That's the one I was going with.

However, whatever bike that is on in the mentioned article isn't the GT. He mentions using a 19mm wrench to loosen those reservoir caps. The 2006 GT, because of the lower dash and proximity to the front fork area (unit is tucked under left hand side fairing up front) it doesn't use the 19mm caps. Instead, they use some 8mm hex head Allen wrench thing, probably because you cannot get a 19mm wrench on the back one at all.


This photo shows the hex/allen driver in the cap. You can also see the vent hose from both the caps on the far left that exits out to under the middle of the bike. Appears open to the air and dirt whereas the R series goes into some container. Dunno what's up with that.




The other circuit bleeder cap is hiding in middle between syringe and dash and partly in the shadow in this photo. It's too close to brake lines and frame for the Mini-Stan funnel to fit. Might fit sawed in half with a hose in the middle. Look at the 6 bleeder caps towards the right! Ugh!




The BMW dealer setup has hoses that go out to the side and off to the filling container with the fluid. I sort of jury-rigged a setup like theirs by doing this (the syringe handle is in place just to keep it all clean) A wire coat-hanger holds the syringe in position:




The white piece at the end of the vinyl hose is an ezcon-x PushCON-X connector from the local Orchard Supply Hardware store. It has a 1/2" pipe thread and a common 5/8" dia. x 3/32" thick O-ring like the one mentioned in the article above. Getting the little vinyl line on it is a bit tight and stubborn and a thin-wall vinyl tube would help or maybe a thin brass tube with vinyl outside of that connector. It catches only about one thread worth in the BMW reservoir plastic piece but it compresses the O-ring hopefully enough to make a seal (it's just gravity feed and no pressure). Hand tighten only! A 15/32" (bottom dimension) rubber stopper may have worked too if there was an easy way to drill it.

The BMW reservoir threads appear to be some weird M17x1.5 straight fitting (I'm guesstimating the thread pitch, but the OD measured out 17mm on the calipers.). KTM has an oil drain plug on their newer dirt bikes with that thread for about $12, just that my local dealer didn't have any to try out and it's much cheaper than the $53 quoted for the BMW plastic cap and hose combo they sell. Couldn't find a drain plug that size at the auto parts houses either. One guy asked me if it was out of a BMW like "Nothing they do is normal and a stock item." Brake supply houses were like "Huh?" on the BMW Servo-ABS system. May as well have been talking about the lunar rover's brakes.


Mack
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 21st, 2010, 11:42 am
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Good job on getting some pics posted, that will surely help another GT rider see what they're in for. The threaded abs part for the K1200R comes with a Y hose and has 2 of those threaded caps so people might be able to share the cost of making a setup like yours.

James

’06 K1200R Corbin w/ smuggler, Wilbers shocks, PCIII, Factory Pro Dyno tuned, CC Suspension plates, Vario levers, Dual Evo filters, Leo Vince SBK, V1, Zumo 550

’02 WR250F Stock

’99 SV650 GSX-R front end, Aftershocks suspension, Penske shock, 41mm FCR flat slides, Bridgestone slicks, M4 exhaust, Vortex clipons, Woodcraft rearsets, Hot Bodies race bodywork, Factory Pro clutch cover, Total Loss ignition, BRG relocated battery, APE Adjustable Cam sprockets, JE 13:1 pistons, mild porting, balanced crank, Sunoco 110 race fuel

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 21st, 2010, 1:24 pm Thread Starter
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Thinking over the setup and the design of the BMW factory one, I wonder why one couldn't just disconnect the hose off the reservoir cap and use that along with the syringe thing and hose and forget about the ezcon 1/2" pipe connector I used - or even the Mini-Stan in other models? Unless it is a very sharp barb on the cap it that makes removing the hose difficult.

Only thing that bothers me is I could see an air bubble getting trapped doing that, but the lower system reservoir seems to be designed so if there was an air bubble that gets in there, it exits via the vent hose as it is the high point? Maybe just loosen the cap a bit to let some fluid out along with any trapped air in the bleeding process? I dunno.

It's an odd system. That recessed area on the right side (first photo and beneath the white filler connector of mine) of the unit has two detent-like balls like used on some extension on a socket wrench. Might be an electrical connection too. Dunno. I don't think I want to try and press in on either of them.

Fwiw, the S1000RR system is maybe 1/5th the size of this thing. No servos though, and I guess that's what that large KAG motor is for on the underside of the GT unit.

Not familiar with the need for 6 bleeders either. Seems overkill. This thing looks like a bolt-together hodge-podge of stuff for $2,500.

The steel brake lines with plastic covering are interesting too. The plastic covering (?) only occurs on some line bends though and not all. I don't know if those bends are just some plastic covering at those bends or if it is plastic only. Seems like it would not take the pressure and pop or leak out the ends. If the plastic were that strong, seems BMW would have used it for the entire line (since they love their $$$ plastic bits so much.).

_____________________

added:

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere in the brake bleeding info that I've found, but plastic turkey basters dissolve in a matter of time around DOT 4 brake fluid and get very gummy and sticky. Use glass if you can find one and not plastic!



I'm beginning to think this was a very dumb idea too. Web info has wrong circuits identified.


Mack

Last edited by GMack; Sep 21st, 2010 at 4:14 pm.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old Sep 21st, 2010, 6:36 pm
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That's odd about your plastic turkey baster melting. I have one that I use for brakes and it hasn't had a problem. And if you think about it, your DOT 4 fluid came in a plastic bottle.

James

’06 K1200R Corbin w/ smuggler, Wilbers shocks, PCIII, Factory Pro Dyno tuned, CC Suspension plates, Vario levers, Dual Evo filters, Leo Vince SBK, V1, Zumo 550

’02 WR250F Stock

’99 SV650 GSX-R front end, Aftershocks suspension, Penske shock, 41mm FCR flat slides, Bridgestone slicks, M4 exhaust, Vortex clipons, Woodcraft rearsets, Hot Bodies race bodywork, Factory Pro clutch cover, Total Loss ignition, BRG relocated battery, APE Adjustable Cam sprockets, JE 13:1 pistons, mild porting, balanced crank, Sunoco 110 race fuel

’98 KLX331 Race Tech suspension, 331 Stroker big bore kit, 33mm pumper, Tag bars, Stroker exhaust, IMS desert tank, tall seat foam w/ Stroker cover, Open air box, KX clutch
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