Power commander for K13GT. Autotune or not? - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 2019, 3:04 pm Thread Starter
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Power commander for K13GT. Autotune or not?

Greetings,

I think I want a power commander to help with performance in around 3k RPM. I'm 100% sure it is too lean.

I live at 5,500 feet in Colorado, and ride to 8,000ft frequently, and 12,000 once in a while. Should I be planning on the autotune option? I am not sure how quickly it applies corrections.

The alternative would be to either experiment/fool around myself, or get it dyno tuned. I am mechanically competent, but have never worked with the power commander system before.

What do you guys suggest?

Thanks
Doug
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2019, 1:16 pm
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don't forget the higher up the lower u need the octane rating

in euro world it takes 98 at sea level (Europe using a proper measure of octane, not the US version) so 95 would be better suited to being up in the air
power commander is a rough and ready bodge....a remap would be better idea, but yes far to lean (at sea level)

you could try these guys but not cheap

https://brentuningmoto.com/product/bmw-k1300-2005-bmsk/

Last edited by botus; Apr 14th, 2019 at 2:01 pm.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 15th, 2019, 5:02 pm Thread Starter
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Yes, that is a pricey approach, but the PC V and autotune is pricey too...
I guess I hadn't really thought of the PCV as a bodge given the access to wide-band O2 data, but I guess it is limited because it doesn't have the ability change ignition timing.

That's an in interesting, thought expensive, option. Have you used the BrenTuning system?

Doug
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 15th, 2019, 9:35 pm
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I'd want to be dead nuts certain that if I messed with the BMS-KP tuning maps, I could reset it to factory at any time if I had any hint of having effed up. And I'd want to be able to save the last map, so that if I took it up later, I could reload and proceed to adjust further. That's not much to ask.

But, do you have the knowledge to realize not only what you're after, but the complexity, consequences and interactions of you changes with the overall function of the injection system? If you're not willing to accept complete responsibility, then overall you'd be better off taking it somewhere that is knowledgeable and has a database of satisfied customers. I don't give a rip for testimonials online, they are meaningless. You want personal honest substantiation that "they did this, and it improved my bike by such-and-so".

BTW, if you're convinced the system is too lean (I'm not arguing) and make it richer somewhere on the map, you're inescapably gonna pay in lost mpg. Extent of such is to be determined, as is your tolerance for turning into the next gas station more frequently.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 16th, 2019, 10:17 am Thread Starter
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Yes, I realize that making the bike richer could affect gas mileage, but I think it's not clear that that would be the effect in real life for me.

Here's a better description of the situation. The bike starts instantly and runs without bad problems at all temperatures and altitudes. I don't think there is anything really "wrong" with the bike. It has stacks of power at higher rpm.

But, if I roll on the throttle too quickly in around the 3000 to 4000 rpm range the bike hesitates, pretty significantly. If I really slam the throttle open (not what I do, other than for experiments), then it really struggles.

I added an AF-XIED device which, if you are not familiar with it, spoofs the signal from the O2 sensor to make the BMSK system run a little richer overall. This absolutely helps the roll-on problem but is an ugly bodge because the bike doesn't need to be richer everywhere, so I've dialed that back a bit to help the roll-on but only cost a couple of mpg. Back in the stone age I would have adjusted the accelerator pump, (I'm so glad we're beyond that!).

The bike has gobs of power, but because the tuning is (IMHO) off a bit, I'm not accessing any fun at 3k to 4k rpm, meaning that I'm tending to run at higher rpm which seems unnecessary on a commute! (And I'm sure is using more gas).

Certainly a removable "piggyback" device like an AF-xied or Power Commander is less intrusive, but it seems that it should be possible to make adjustments to do things "properly" using the existing very capable hardware. Screwing up and "bricking" the BMSK would not be fun, so I take the idea of reflashing thing thing quite seriously.

cheers,
Doug
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 16th, 2019, 12:59 pm
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I wouldn't get excited by BMW maps, yes they are complex (which is why no one ever actually remaps the physical map), but the quality of workmanship is awful. Rough, overly lean, a quick bodge disaster to get it running, is far closer to the mark. Yes, they pretend to care about emissions, but you could see for yourself with a power commander and an afternoon playing with your laptop "guessing at the mixture settings" would actually give a far smoother, more powerful, better and safer map.

However a PCV is just a joke bodge too. What I now believe is going on with most "professional remaps" - (the next stage on from PCV bodge) is messing about tweaking the spare bit on the stock map designed for "adaptions".

Adaptions are stored extra tweaks to software on modern vehicles. It works by adding a new layer (and thus minor changes) to the stock map, based on learnt fixes, refinements and workarounds for poor sensor data, wear and tear and cheap manufacturing at build. These enhancements (AKA adaptions) are based on how badly its running and tiny modification to individual ignition and fuel maps per cylinder to help make it less bad.

What we get these days is new bodge on tuning shops (who aren't prepared to pay for the software and checksums to do it properly). So they now over egg the adaption data to bring a bit extra to the party. Best seen where a turbo can be wound up by the stock map. Its also why so many are "not seen when plugged into diagnostic equipment…." nothing had been reprogrammed - most are just livelier assistance from the systems own engine management !!!

These guys appear to write the original BMW maps https://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/software/ I came across it hacking a copy of the stock map the bike came with using a hex editor.... turns out the stock BMW maps contain these guys info. I'm only looking because my R1200GS got a software update by BMW and it ended up much slower.... Smoother till 4k then flat and useless afterwards.

I think this is the same brentuning mapping at 1/3rd the cost https://www.remapper.co.uk/buy-remapper/ and in reality its just playstation tuning. Buy this, the computer says these settings work - now give me $800. The reality is the Chinese box is worth less then $40 and the map software is worth about 3 cents - its just computer generated crap.

Sadly these guys don't touch the overly complicated (for no good reason) maps BMW and KTM dabble with https://youtu.be/9WYjZrpa-ZU

a resource where the best chip tuning guys really buy the gear they use https://amtcartech.com/

Don't forget the PCV for the K1300 only bodges the fueling (unlike some, this bike doesn't get any ignition tweaks) and can only work after you disconnect the Lambda sensor. So it reverts to the stock BM map and adds or subtracts tiny amounts of fuel based on a map you can write yourself. I know the old UK importer of this gear and he thinks the autotune is a joke and is really only for people desperate to play who have zero access to a dyno. If you want the auto tune to build a good map you need lots of time and a set of progressive hills, then go up and down thousands of times on every load and throttle setting you can imagine.

Last edited by botus; Apr 16th, 2019 at 1:46 pm.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 16th, 2019, 3:34 pm Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botus View Post
These guys appear to write the original BMW maps https://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/software/ I came across it hacking a copy of the stock map the bike came with using a hex editor.... turns out the stock BMW maps contain these guys info. I'm only looking because my R1200GS got a software update by BMW and it ended up much slower.... Smoother till 4k then flat and useless afterwards.
Botus, how did you download the stock map? What interface system did you use? I'm not afraid of diving in with a hex editor or even writing some code if I could understand the format of the data and what the values mean. That's probably one of the main hassles of trying to figure this out, I suppose. (BTW, I have an R1200GS too).

I'm interesting in thinking about this a bit more, though I'm really too busy to take on another "spare time" project. The PCV seems more of a bodge than I'd thought. The Brentuning approach seems very expensive, though I might be willing to pay that if I was 100% happy. Brentuning uses the Alientech system and while you can buy that handset quite cheaply, I don't know what software is required, and it may be that Alientech use encryption to make it hard/impossible to use the handset outside their network.
Thx, Doug
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 17th, 2019, 12:05 pm
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Originally Posted by DougM View Post
Botus, how did you download the stock map? What interface system did you use? I'm not afraid of diving in with a hex editor or even writing some code if I could understand the format of the data and what the values mean. That's probably one of the main hassles of trying to figure this out, I suppose. (BTW, I have an R1200GS too).

BMW dealerships linked to the factory carry out updates using a diagnostic / updating tool called ISTAP. Its widely leaked/hacked and on the internet... But that's only a small element of things.... next all the actual firmware/software files for a given vehicle are required. BMW release a fresh set 3 or so times a year. But all in its around 8gig of data, again easy to locate if you know what you are looking for.

The K1300GT is on a branch called K024 (and it actually runs on almost all the electronics of the R1200GS K25 from 2004 to 2007 - the engine ECU is the same part, just running different software). If you download all the SP-Daten files you will find hidden in one folder :\BMW\V3.66_SP-Daten_Files\K44\data\BMSKP2 is all the engine maps they ever released for the engine ECU on this bike. The trouble is I have never located anyone who can tweak and put it back.

There are various other tools (some old official BM ones - like NCS Expert) that can update individual modules.... You need the right cable from your laptop to the bike. But the official way since circa 2009 is to write the whole vehicle I-level all in one go and any module gets re-flashed with either the same or a newer version (if one exists) of the software its running. Only takes 35 mins on these bikes (and 12 minutes on the K25).

Pretty sure the other non PCV idea is (exactly the same as has been around on cars since 2009) you plug in the box of tricks to the diagnostic socket... it takes note of the ECU and software version its running, then grabs a copy "of your vehicle's Adaptions". You go on the internet post the file to the "expert tuning company" they open, cross ref with a list of computer generated Chinese trash tweaks for that model of vehicle and they post it back. You plug in the box of tricks and can write the old or the updated adaptions to the bike. (does that sound like $800 ???)

Here's a guy doing it at home... -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxpgd_a4Btk and I don't know why BUT you never see the ABS module on the tool, when BM did mine I questioned heavily (as my update tool and in the list of files, shows a later ABS software version - they too say it does everything but the ABS and it can't be done !

this is a fairly recent list of I-levels for BM RR and Mini vehicles. The bikes are on page 22

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...TIte99zwZIcJMn

most of the stuff is this or newer

ISTA-D: 4.15.12
ISTA-P: 3.66.0.2
VIN: 2018.11.26
SDP programming database:4.15.12
ETK: 2019.2
KSD: 2019.2
INPA 5.00: winkfp 5.2.3 : NCS 3.5.1
BMWAi: 4.6
E-SYS: 3.27.1 / 3.30.1
Database V66.0, add Chinese version software
Dr. GINI B020
FSC navigation arithmetic software
Add BMW old car DIS software, DISV57 and DISV44, diagnosis and programming

Last edited by botus; Apr 17th, 2019 at 2:32 pm.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 17th, 2019, 12:23 pm
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my ramblings from another forum on the BM map update for my GS

K25 R1200GS 0307, Jul 2007 build, got an engine flash when sold new in Jan 2008 and for 10 years it had engine map 07717143, this was very quick everywhere, but gets knock under abuse at high temperatures around 6300 rpm and has awful fueling below 3250 rpm (without a power commander)

I subsequently found out 6 months after mine was updated when sold new, they "developed" engine map 07719873 to "reduce knock, enhance idle stability and improve cold temp running" - this went on the bike recently (by BM main dealer) and it has ruined the bike completely. Its now gutless everywhere, with a flat spot from hell around 4500 rpm, and cold temp fueling is over rich by miles

bike was stock and was always quick, I took out a number of 2010 bikes with the noisy flap valve in the exhaust and they were always very slow. Mine over the same stretch of uphill country lane would pull 110 mph quite easily where the later engines couldn't make 100mph. And through the gears mine was always much faster and more lively.

However when I went to road tyres I wanted more acceleration and thus went lower profile. This reduced the impact of intermittent lag at 6300 rpm, but that had coincided with fitting a PC3 where I did as per instructions and disconnected the lambda sensors. Then set about creating a map to cure three issues.

1) instrument cluster trying to fall off the dash and the rear bevel chattering like it had spent the winter in Antarctica, when the revs were below 3250 rpm
2) nasty rough spot between 4600 and 4900 rpm
3) 6200 to 6600 rpm ignition off and sleep for 2 seconds lag in hot weather 70% + throttle application

The PC3 was very successful, making great power and flexibility from 1800 to 7800 rpm most of the time. It would lift the front from 3000 rpm and get on with things nicely, the 6300 rpm issue was seldom an issue and the stretchy throttle cable sensation (when it detected knock) mostly went away.

after 15k miles I realised the shorter gearing had clocked 1k miles extra and by then the bigger tyre sizes to suit the LC GS where about in road fitment, so I went back to almost stock gearing. This brought back the 6300 rpm issue big time. So it turns out it was more the gearing reduction rather than the PC3 that had cured the poor throttle response. I was considering water meth injection triggered by the PC3 (switching of such a device being supported). But got enticed by a late 2017 LC adventure. Not planning on letting go of the 2007 one I realised the below 2k rpm mapping I had on the air cooled bike was still rather rudimentary and so I leaned it out a bit more (over the significant enrichment most use) not really impacting power, but I couldn't get low rev stability and on off a closed throttle response, anywhere near the LC bike.

I'd added a booster plug on the LC and it helped fractionally, but the electronics undefeatable for use with cruise control was on another level of performance loss. Combined with the fact even when the electronic nannies allowed it to actually try and run, it was always far SLOWER than my air cooled GS was everywhere. The demo bike went hard after 8k but my LC did nothing anywhere. So I off loaded it very quickly.

So now I needed to sort the air cooled bikes issues. Unable to find anyone sensible to tackle the bugs in the ignition curve, I found in June 2008 BMW had released a little known bunch if "fixes" to most of the ills it had and remains the standard map the bikes are supposed to be running. The fixes where:

1) low speed idle stability
2) improved low temperature fuelling
3) resolving customer complaints of pinging by "improving knock sensitivity"

It took a whole £25 pounds and 15 mins to achieve at my local BMW dealer in Jan 2018, adding a map that was available some 18 month before I'd ever bought the bike (second hand at 2 years old) - making the 9 years I been waiting, seem a bit over the top, especailly as they had always claimed there was nothing they could change !!!

I had it done in the middle of a winter and superficially it felt smoother down the bottom end.

point 1) is better
point 2) is wrong, its far too rich when temps are below 10C. And I can't sort with the PC3 as it would be more wrong when warmer
point 3) is different. Instead of making proper power and holding back now and then for a fraction at 6300 rpm if it detects knock, it now make NO power at all anywhere and its awful

But those are only a few mistakes this hideous currently official BMW remap has caused. A far bigger issue is now impacting drivability in an RPM band you notice every ride. The inherent rough spot of the bike at 4600 rpm is still as rough as it was, but instead of still making serious power and torque through this engine frequency vibe, its now flatter than a squashed hedgehog. With the bike actually struggling to rev through 4 to 5 k at all and then making the old 5500 rpm levels of grunt from 6000 to 7800 rpm - whereas it used to pull hard and rev out cleanly from 3k rpm all the way to the red line on the original map it had when I bought it !!!!

I'd actually say its a flat as standard 2010 bikes are now, whereas it had been far quicker

Last edited by botus; Apr 17th, 2019 at 12:38 pm.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 17th, 2019, 5:51 pm
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I had a Power Commander on my K1200S when I got it. It gave amazing power at low revs.
When I removed it I got much more amazing tractability and control at all revs.
I would never go back to a power commander.
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