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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 2011, 10:22 pm Thread Starter
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any info 03k12gt electrical gremlin

Hi everyone, I have a 2003 K12GT that I purchased roughly 4 years ago. What a great bike, my first BMW. I have a gremlin that just showed up and I am in the dark. Right or left turn signal will cancel when the motor is at 1800-2200 rpm's. This will happen consistently whether the bike is moving or sitting on the center stand in the garage. The bike came with an HID low beam already installed, every once in a while the headlight will turn off at same rpm, as well as instrument lights. The turn signals are consistent in going out. I have replaced the turn signal relay, replaced the load relief relay, replaced the battery and have checked all ground wire's. The bike also has PIAA driving lights with a Autoswitch from Cycle Gadgets. The PIAA's turn on/off with the turn cancellation button. I have disconnected the Autoswitch from the system and still have same results. At 1800-2200 rpm, signals will not turn back on, they give 2 quick flashes and then out. Now this happens as rolling up to these rpm's, if I rev quickly past, it has no effect on the signals. Any idea's would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by indyk12; Sep 23rd, 2011 at 5:56 pm.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 23rd, 2011, 7:08 pm
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Don't really know. If you go up to 3000 RPM, does everything go back to a working state?
Does the headlight fire back up while the bike is running, or only comes on when you restart the bike?
Reason I ask is an HID will shut off if the voltage drops too low, but won't relight until the voltage is gone and re-applied. Point being is based on how the HID behaves, you can determine if the voltage is dropping or disappearing. If it's disappearing, then when the RPM changes, it should fire back up.
A loose ground wire would cause some of this as well, but no idea what wire to check or ground point to look at.



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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 24th, 2011, 8:06 am
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It sounds either like a ground wire off or a bad battery connection. The turn signal control is electronic so it could be affected by interference from the alternator which I would put down to a possible bad battery connection, either the positive side or one of the two grounds. You did put back TWO ground wires on the battery?

Whilst you can repeat the fault, I would put an analogue voltmeter on the parking light wire and see if the voltage stays or dips as you go through that rpm. Also check the voltage is about 14.4 volts with the motor running reved up and down. If the voltage ever goes above say16 volts, then either you have lost the battery connection or the alternator regulator is faulty. If it goes below, then the alternator is not charging. You know where the load relief relay is so you should be able to tell with the voltmeter if that is dropping in and out at that rpm.

I would be a little suspicious about the HID conversion and look carefully at how it is wired and grounded. With rpm (or onset of charging) causing the problem, I would be looking at the alternator and its connections to the battery.



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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 24th, 2011, 9:31 am Thread Starter
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The HID has an ON?OFF switch mounted, never used it until now. Once the HID goes out I can cycle the switch while motor is running and it will come back on. I have put a volt meter at the battery while running, at idle I am showing 13.7. I can take motor up to 3500 rpm and it will spike at 14.0 but stay at 13.8. I have not thought about the alternator, thanks for the heads up. I did connect 2 ground wire's and have rechecked all connections at the battery. I also went through the connections on the HID thinking mabe bad ground there, everything checked ok. I will post what I find on the alt. check.
Thanks again for the info.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 25th, 2011, 5:18 pm
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You need to check those voltages with as much electrical load on as possible. I'm wondering if your alternator has lost a diode. That would still give some charge to the battery, but the alternator output would be less smooth and in pulses. You wouldn't get full output either.

An oscilloscope across the battery is the best tool if you have one. This would certainly show up any bad alternator or battery behaviour with varying rpm.



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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 26th, 2011, 10:22 am
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Engine running, brand new Odissey battery and all the lights on, Voltage at 13.74. Did not vary much with RPM. Having said that, it should spike at 14.3 if charging the battery or more load on the system.

I do have an On/Off switch on my HID but it is now run by relay with much beefed up wiring and grounds so no problems there. I think you better inspect all of the PO's electrical work. Electrical hacks and spaghetti wiring......filled up one of my vehicles with smoke once, I don't trust them anymore.

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 27th, 2011, 11:10 pm Thread Starter
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Puzzled but in the right direction

I convinced my friend who works as an aircraft mech (and owns an R1150RT) to come and troubleshoot. Here's his findings: "All the lights that are in question are fed through the load relief relay so step one was to remove the relay and install a jumper wire in its socket to connect the hot battery terminal to the output; result- problem is gone. Lights all stay on, turn signal do not cancel. Step two: reinstall load relief relay; result- problem returns immediately. Step three: swap horn and LR relay; result- same problem. LR relay is powered from start module which normally provides a ground to the LR relay but applies 12VDC when starting which deactivates the LR relay and kills the lights. If the start module was activating intermittently you should here the starter run, which you don't. Step four: start bike, remove start module and place jumper wire between socket 1 and 3 which provides the ground to the LR relay from the starter while eliminating everything else; result- problem still there. Connected voltmeter to jumper wire and saw a 0.25VAC spike (no DC voltage seen) around 2000 RPM, where the light issue shows up. So something in the starter is producing voltage which hides the ground and deactivates the LR relay."

So now the question, is something wrong with the starter or could it be the the starter clutch in the engine binding up at certain RPMs and driving the starter (making it a generator)? Major dis-assembly either way. Maybe do a couple of low mileage oil changes to flush out starter clutch? How about adding some kerosene at the oil change and running it for a few minutes in the shop and then changing the oil again? Anyone had any experience with the highly (internet) acclaimed SeaFoam additive? We're going to try putting a diode between the LR relay and the start module to eliminate the feedback but I don't want to keep riding if it is slowly damaging the starter or its clutch. I definitely want to exhaust all possible SAFE options before tearing the bike apart.

What's the jury have to say???
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 28th, 2011, 11:43 am
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I tought Mr.Flyingkiwi would beat me to this....! He'll be here.

You need to clean the starter,probably lots of carbon dust in there screwing up the rest of the electricals. You probably saw the "procedure" in the manuals for removal.

So.....you may/will want to try this:

http://www.k-bikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21257

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 28th, 2011, 1:59 pm
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Yes, if the starter motor were turning it would generate (all DC motors will; that's how you can brake them) but since the starter relay opens the contact as soon as you take your finger off the start button there isn't any connection to the starter after that.
Just my thoughts, but:
The ground “supply” to the LR comes through the start module, through a contact (or solid state) in the unit itself, and then to the LR relay. The start relay opens the ground, deactivating the LR. The 12vdc you are reading at that point on the LR ground terminal is probably not being supplied from the start relay; you are probably reading the voltage through the coil on the LR relay (assuming you are testing directly to a good frame ground). You are providing the ground through your meter.
You mentioned you bypassed the ground on the start relay (terminal 1 and 3) but did you try to follow where the start relay gets that ground from? Maybe there’s a connection issue there. Might simply be a resonant frequency issue that’s causing something to vibrate at the 2000 rpm mark. With the bike idling, do the “wiggle” test on all the connections or ground terminals you can find including those on the starter and alternator (if you can reach them!) to see if you can replicate the problem at a different rpm. It doesn’t take much of a loose contact to cause problems. And loose grounds are always the worst!
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old Sep 28th, 2011, 5:18 pm
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+1 for the starter cleaning hint from H96669. Especially attention to the commutator, worn brushes and weak springs.

The negative side of LR relay coil is grounded at all time through the starter (via starter module and starter feed cable), except when you push the starter button,
then it got a positive feed from both sides and the magnetic field are lost (until you release the starter button).

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