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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 7th, 2013, 12:42 pm Thread Starter
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K1200rs warning light

Just purchased a 2004 K1200rs which has been sat in a garage for 3yrs. Put a new battery on and changed the brake pads and it sailed through the mot. The problem is that I have a general warning light showing which is supposed to be related to a faulty rear light. The fault was showing before I replaced the pads. I have replaced the rear bulb and numberplate bulb several times to try different ones, they are the correct watts, I have purchased a GS-911 (genuine and not Chinese) carried out all the tests which it passed with flying colours. The only one showing is faulty rear light. I did wonder if it may be an abs relay but my local bmw dealer could not find one on their system and suggested replacing the pump at 1500!
I noticed when I was carrying out the tests that both filaments were lit after the start sequence . I also checked both brake light switches and they are functioning properly.
My next move is to change the brake fluid and also earth the rear light direct as the wire disappears into the loom. Any suggestions would be most helpful.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2013, 8:46 am
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ABS "warning" relay.... No wonder the dealer can't find it it isn't even listed in the K1200RS parts fiche. Want the part number??? Had to dig mine out of there to get that part number. But I fixed the balky relay so no need to spend $32.00.

But mine is/was faulty however all that did was "no self test" on starting up the bike. That is no flashing ABS light but the general warning light and brake light worked as they should.So....not your problem I'd think for now.

However and that may not be a good thing moneywise, both them lights "ABS and General Warning" do flash IF there are faults in the system. The flashing action is controlled by the "flasher relay" and that's an expensive one. If for some reason it is defective, that may contribute to your problem.

There is also, from what we found last week possible errors even in the BMW electrical plans so for now I am just making some assumptions. Hum....been too busy to start the thread on all that and try to sort out them electrical mysteries with someone's help of course. Electrical box is open and most of the wiring visible on my bike, just waiting for some time with the camera/testers and wiring diagrams.

Both filaments on at the same time???.....almost sounds like you may have corrosion in a connector and there is contact somewhere between tail/brake light.That could be verified with an Ohmeter starting at the bulb socket and then at the connector under the seat....

And....Sailor will probably show up he is better than me with the electrical plans.

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2013, 11:09 am Thread Starter
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Angry K1200 rs warning light

Earthed the rear light direct to chassis and no success. Checked the bulb holder and no shorts, corrosion so it looks like all the panels off to let the dog see the rabbit ( as us lads from the shires say ).
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2013, 2:50 pm
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Before you go too far as in the I-ABS connectors or the CC connector where the brake light wiring may take you....!

Had to run my bike after the oil change. So disconnected the rear wiring harness at the connector R/H side under the seat with engine running.

General warning light came on as expected and I lost the taillight also as expected.

But then I reconnected with engine still running and what do you know...general warning light stayed on and the brake light also came on. Had to cycle the ignition to reset to default settings.

Let me think...is that one of the connectors where I found the greenies starting to appear years ago??? Most probably one of them as there were a few.


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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2013, 4:43 pm Thread Starter
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K1200rs warning light

Thats interesting because when I first took the seat off the bike the connector block was not secures to the bracket on the frame. So someone must have taken it off for a reason. Starting my day shifts tommorow so won't be able to have a look until tuesday. So do you suggest starting the engine and while it is running disconnect the rear lights, re-connect then turn off ignition and turn on again to see if it re-sets.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2013, 9:27 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajm356
Thats interesting because when I first took the seat off the bike the connector block was not secures to the bracket on the frame. So someone must have taken it off for a reason. Starting my day shifts tommorow so won't be able to have a look until tuesday. So do you suggest starting the engine and while it is running disconnect the rear lights, re-connect then turn off ignition and turn on again to see if it re-sets.
It got a bit late today so couldn't finish what I set to. Only acts like that with the engine running. Disconnecting with only the ignition on, engine not running and you just loose everything, no more tail light/brake light and the general warning light comes on.

That reset procedure seems plausible but you may not have to reconnect with the engine running. I'll check again tomorrow. Switch off ignition, reconnect and then ignition on again and should act normally.That is if no broken wires and that's too easy to do with them small gauge wires, they can break internally if mishandled with no apparent breaks on the sheating.

And pay attention at corrosion in the connectors, I don't talk about that for no reason, they are not very well protected and can all use a clean/lube as a maintenance item. And so says the BMW service bulletin. Once a year they say....use the good stuff and do it every second year.

I'd do anything not to trace them wires into the main loom where they disappear. I played with the other connectors...brake switch and ABS sensor. I bet I will have to clear faults with the GS-911 once again

I can tell you for sure....NOT the ABS warning relay, I did a few rude things to that one and no symptoms similar to yours. And the dealer with his "new" modulator....

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 9th, 2013, 2:18 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H96669
It got a bit late today so couldn't finish what I set to. Only acts like that with the engine running. Disconnecting with only the ignition on, engine not running and you just loose everything, no more tail light/brake light and the general warning light comes on.

That reset procedure seems plausible but you may not have to reconnect with the engine running. I'll check again tomorrow. Switch off ignition, reconnect and then ignition on again and should act normally.That is if no broken wires and that's too easy to do with them small gauge wires, they can break internally if mishandled with no apparent breaks on the sheating.

And pay attention at corrosion in the connectors, I don't talk about that for no reason, they are not very well protected and can all use a clean/lube as a maintenance item. And so says the BMW service bulletin. Once a year they say....use the good stuff and do it every second year.

I'd do anything not to trace them wires into the main loom where they disappear. I played with the other connectors...brake switch and ABS sensor. I bet I will have to clear faults with the GS-911 once again

I can tell you for sure....NOT the ABS warning relay, I did a few rude things to that one and no symptoms similar to yours. And the dealer with his "new" modulator....
Pierre, please permit me to jump in here....

The same user also posted in another thread that his rear brake light was on all the time.

So if his bike shows both problem on 2002-2005 models: (1) rear-brake light ON at all times (2) an ABS fault that doe not go away after the self-check (approx 6 seconds) and neither after he starts moving (approx 50 feet):

1) on these IABS (Integral-ABS) equipped models, both brake switch have a reversed logic compare to most other bikes. When at rest, the brake switches have continuity - when pressed (lever or pedal) the continuity is stopped. This is so the ABS-modulator can check if the switches are functionning when the self-check is done (approx 6 sec total after ignition ON). If a brake-switch has a wire cut, or a connector (in the loom/harness) without good contact, then the system assumes there is a fault when the self check is done.

2) Because of above, the system can hardy make a difference between a bad switch contact (or wire broken) and a lever/pedal that is pressed. Both scenario are based on no brake switch continuity. Thus, the rear brake-light will stay on at all time.

3) As a warning of the above fault, after the diagnostic period of the ABS, the red ABS-warning on the dash (the left one) will flash fast (instead of slow) and the red General-warning (triangle) will go off as usual after 6 seconds. After you start moving, the ABS-warning will stay on at fast rate. In the user manual, it warns you that you have no assisted brake in this condition (residual brake mode).

If your ABS warnings looks like the above and your rear-brake light is always ON, then you need to check for either:
a) rear brake switch metal tab (visible from outside) that may have been bent and activates the switch even when pedal is not pressed. Common when bike is dropped and brake pedal is bent.

b) rear of front brake switch that is disconnected or loose at the harness. This is easy for the rear as the connector is just under the seat. Not so easy for the front switch connector.

c) rear of front brake switch wiring that is damaged or cut somewhere. Not very common, but possible.


If none of the above can be identified, then the last option would be a defective ABS-modulator. On these Integral-ABS models, the rear brake light is monitored and controlled by the electronics inside the modulator. Both brake switches signal enter the ABS-unit, and the output from the ABS-unit feeds current to the rear brake light.

IMPORTANT...one more thing ;-)... as Pierre mentioned earlier, if the rear bulb is defective or a wire is cut (or disconnected) going to the rear light, the system will sense this and show a fault. BUT, the fault on the dash is different than the fault I have described above: for a defective bulb or defective bulb circuit, the red general-warning (triangle) stay on full time (no flash).

Hope this helps....
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by sailor; Nov 9th, 2013 at 4:14 pm.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2013, 1:51 pm
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Thanks Sailor I needed your input for myself....I did a few more checks yesterday.Gives me a little more to think about re:the brake switch.

But I did disconnect mine, which is same as using it as we know. Did not act like the OP's symptoms BUT....my bike doesn't have any electrical problems so of course can only try to duplicate without breaking anything. And clear faults later.

I disconnected the brake switch then turned on the ignition, then brake light comes on but the General warning light still goes off after a few seconds and the ABS warning light stays on the fast flash as per your description. But will show a fault with the GS911, that I know for sure done that before. So one fault I'll read/clear later.

Turn on the ignition then disconnect the brake switch and the brake light comes on but also as they should the servo-motors.One more fault to be cleared off....

Only way to keep the warning light on at all time with the brake switch disconnected is to remove the ABS relay but the switch does not have to be disconnected to do that. And with the relay removed, the ABS light(left) doesn't function anymore.Relay fault showing??? Don't know yet and don't think so but certainly a switch fault.

Where it gets tricky is the relay diagnostics as it is a two contacts relay, as it flashes it alternates bewtwen contacts on/off and at rest "no power/ignition" it is in the closed position/contact on. And described somewhere else I have seen as a "No contact" relay, that's a little misleading that description. Still beats the other description....

Then with bike underway and self tests completed is looks like it is always powered and the contacts are in the open position but there is still an internal contact in that relay.That's how mine was acting up, the extra heat from the "power on/dirty contacts" seemed to affect its function and then it worked again when it cooled off after a period that was getting longer and longer.But no faults there on the GS-911.

Depending on which contact is bad in the relay that is if there is a bad one, it could affect the general warning light function but the ABS light(left) wouldn't function as it should. And from my own recent experience....NO self test/bad relay doesn't show fault codes on the GS-911.

So...I'd also like to know if the OP's ABS light(left) is acting normally....fast flash at first then slower and goes off after the rolling self test.

Disconnecting any of the switches or ABS sensors always give me faults on the GS-911, either a switch fault or sensor fault.Would act the same with a broken wire/non functioning switch. And the OP hasn't found any of that.

I was wrong on the Flasher Unit controlling the flashing lights in the dash but took the stethoscope to figure that one. Can't trust my old ears anymore.... So the BMW schematics are probably right and so is Clymer at least on that one.A little busy no time to get back to that but will eventually.

But so far...ABS relay controls the flashing of the ABS light(left) only. Flashing of the General Warning light is controlled I'd assume by the ABS brain, may even be a relay in there??? I can get the "general warning" to flash with ABS relay disconnected and the brake fluid level sensor also disconnected. And of course the "Flasher unit" also disconnected to take that one completely out of the circuit. So something in the brain is flashing the "General Warning Light".To some extent the two lights work together but from within the brain....

I'll try to go back to that this morning with the writing pad/camera this time.

What could help the OP more with the diagnostics is voltage checks at the connector/bulb and some continuity checks with the Ohmeter to indentify a possibly broken wire/bad connection.Some of that may be hard to do considering the wires going into the ABS brain aren't too accessible unless the ABS is disconnected.

I am reading 0.06V at the brake light wire with ignition ON....normal I think as it is how they check the integrity of the brake light circuit/bulb by sending a low voltage through the circuit. Bad connection somewhere may equal to more resistance on the circuit....and then the brain think it is a fault and....Warning light on and both bulb filaments on.

And certainly hard to diagnose as all them functions/lights etc. act differently depending on engine running or not and as far as I can see....completed self tests including the rolling one. And from pulling connectors etc....could there be two faults masquerading as one or a bad connection somewhere?....first thing I'd do anyway is clean/check all the contacts at all them connectors.....easy things first.

Now....if all the diagnostics/repairs prove unsuccessful, there may be a way to tap into the brake switch wire going to the ABS brain and keep the normal servo functions operating. Involves a relay to reverse the function and some rewiring of the brake light circuit to take it out of the "brake light check" loop. Not sure yet, I was going to wire such a setup and throw it under the seat in case I loose the servos/abs and have to de-ABS my bike roadside and avoid going back home on the residual braking function and no brake light.The plumbing part is easy and then a little roadside temporary wiring....Easy(ish) to do with the ABS disconnected but not sure yet how that could work with a functioning/connected ABS system.I may try that as an experiment.

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2013, 3:08 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H96669
Thanks Sailor I needed your input for myself....I did a few more checks yesterday.Gives me a little more to think about re:the brake switch.

But I did disconnect mine, which is same as using it as we know. Did not act like the OP's symptoms BUT....my bike doesn't have any electrical problems so of course can only try to duplicate without breaking anything. And clear faults later.

I disconnected the brake switch then turned on the ignition, then brake light comes on but the General warning light still goes off after a few seconds and the ABS warning light stays on the fast flash as per your description. But will show a fault with the GS911, that I know for sure done that before. So one fault I'll read/clear later.

Turn on the ignition then disconnect the brake switch and the brake light comes on but also as they should the servo-motors.One more fault to be cleared off....

Only way to keep the warning light on at all time with the brake switch disconnected is to remove the ABS relay but the switch does not have to be disconnected to do that. And with the relay removed, the ABS light(left) doesn't function anymore.Relay fault showing??? Don't know yet and don't think so but certainly a switch fault.

Where it gets tricky is the relay diagnostics as it is a two contacts relay, as it flashes it alternates bewtwen contacts on/off and at rest "no power/ignition" it is in the closed position/contact on. And described somewhere else I have seen as a "No contact" relay, that's a little misleading that description. Still beats the other description....

Then with bike underway and self tests completed is looks like it is always powered and the contacts are in the open position but there is still an internal contact in that relay.That's how mine was acting up, the extra heat from the "power on/dirty contacts" seemed to affect its function and then it worked again when it cooled off after a period that was getting longer and longer.But no faults there on the GS-911.

Depending on which contact is bad in the relay that is if there is a bad one, it could affect the general warning light function but the ABS light(left) wouldn't function as it should. And from my own recent experience....NO self test/bad relay doesn't show fault codes on the GS-911.

So...I'd also like to know if the OP's ABS light(left) is acting normally....fast flash at first then slower and goes off after the rolling self test.

Disconnecting any of the switches or ABS sensors always give me faults on the GS-911, either a switch fault or sensor fault.Would act the same with a broken wire/non functioning switch. And the OP hasn't found any of that.

I was wrong on the Flasher Unit controlling the flashing lights in the dash but took the stethoscope to figure that one. Can't trust my old ears anymore.... So the BMW schematics are probably right and so is Clymer at least on that one.A little busy no time to get back to that but will eventually.

But so far...ABS relay controls the flashing of the ABS light(left) only. Flashing of the General Warning light is controlled I'd assume by the ABS brain, may even be a relay in there??? I can get the "general warning" to flash with ABS relay disconnected and the brake fluid level sensor also disconnected. And of course the "Flasher unit" also disconnected to take that one completely out of the circuit. So something in the brain is flashing the "General Warning Light".To some extent the two lights work together but from within the brain....

I'll try to go back to that this morning with the writing pad/camera this time.

What could help the OP more with the diagnostics is voltage checks at the connector/bulb and some continuity checks with the Ohmeter to indentify a possibly broken wire/bad connection.Some of that may be hard to do considering the wires going into the ABS brain aren't too accessible unless the ABS is disconnected.

I am reading 0.06V at the brake light wire with ignition ON....normal I think as it is how they check the integrity of the brake light circuit/bulb by sending a low voltage through the circuit. Bad connection somewhere may equal to more resistance on the circuit....and then the brain think it is a fault and....Warning light on and both bulb filaments on.

And certainly hard to diagnose as all them functions/lights etc. act differently depending on engine running or not and as far as I can see....completed self tests including the rolling one. And from pulling connectors etc....could there be two faults masquerading as one or a bad connection somewhere?....first thing I'd do anyway is clean/check all the contacts at all them connectors.....easy things first.

Now....if all the diagnostics/repairs prove unsuccessful, there may be a way to tap into the brake switch wire going to the ABS brain and keep the normal servo functions operating. Involves a relay to reverse the function and some rewiring of the brake light circuit to take it out of the "brake light check" loop. Not sure yet, I was going to wire such a setup and throw it under the seat in case I loose the servos/abs and have to de-ABS my bike roadside and avoid going back home on the residual braking function and no brake light.The plumbing part is easy and then a little roadside temporary wiring....Easy(ish) to do with the ABS disconnected but not sure yet how that could work with a functioning/connected ABS system.I may try that as an experiment.
Pierre,
I am afraid we might look like mad scientist with all these tests - you are going way farther than me on this.

I basically posted the most probable cause and where to look from easiest to hardest. If we list everything, I think he will be scared and go to the dealer instead - this is NOT the goal of this forum to force the guy there and spent $$$... if he can do it himself.

In addition, I see so many owners who do not understand the basic faults of these complex Integral-ABS system (2001 to 2006 mainly). It look like many did not bother to read the owners manual and the fault table I posted earlier.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old Nov 11th, 2013, 11:50 am
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Quote:
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Pierre,
I am afraid we might look like mad scientist with all these tests - you are going way farther than me on this.

I basically posted the most probable cause and where to look from easiest to hardest. If we list everything, I think he will be scared and go to the dealer instead - this is NOT the goal of this forum to force the guy there and spent $$$... if he can do it himself.

In addition, I see so many owners who do not understand the basic faults of these complex Integral-ABS system (2001 to 2006 mainly). It look like many did not bother to read the owners manual and the fault table I posted earlier.

OK...I'll blame the other Frenchman in BC who gave me an espresso machine.

Not sure if the OP wants to go back to a dealer,they already recommended a modulator replacement and couldn't find the ABS relay....

Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD 200 at 16
Yamaha RD 350 at 17
Honda CB 750 F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
BMW K100RS at 27
BMW R100GS at 34
BMW K1200RS at 53
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