Help...a bad bleed indeed - K-Bikes.com - Excellence in Motion
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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2006, 11:37 pm Thread Starter
 
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Help...a bad bleed indeed

I was in the process of installing speedbleeder and bleeding my rear wheel for the first time. All was going well, following the EVO guide from the archives, until I hit the rear pedal and the reservoir dropped below the minimum level

Can only blame myself here, but I need to figure out how to get it back in shape. Manual shows refilling from the caliper using a "bubble-free injector" tool...from the pics this sure looks like a sryinge with a tube. My question is how do I make/know such a tool is bubble-free? Second, it states squeezing out the air of the tube from caliper to the reservoir. Guess my question is...how will I know ever know if all the air is out? I have never done this before and already feel like I bite off more than I can chew. While I could certainly get it towed to the dealer, I want know how to do this for myself and learn from my mistake. Help.
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 4:43 am
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I know the procedure is a lot more difficult for EVO, but the only two devices I've heard of are the vacuum bleeder (which I use) which you fit on the bleed niple and 'pulls' fluid back from the reservoir. And there's a device that can fit on a reservoir and pressurise the system a bit so you can push fluid through.

In both cases you are constantly checking the reservoir level - the BIG lesson you learned. The BMW push bleeder sounds like you wouldn't get low fluid, but rather you could overflow the reservoir and have fluid all over the bike.

There is so little fluid in our brake systems that even a small amount of air will show as soft brake action at the lever or pedal. Remember how your brakes last felt, 'cos I had some trapped air for a long time thinking it was just new pads, eventually after a lot of persistance and 2-3 cans of fluid I got my brakes back working as they should. I wouldn't say the bike was unsafe to ride, just I knew they weren't 100%.



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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 7:43 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy45320
I was in the process of installing speedbleeder and bleeding my rear wheel for the first time. All was going well, following the EVO guide from the archives, until I hit the rear pedal and the reservoir dropped below the minimum level

Can only blame myself here, but I need to figure out how to get it back in shape. Manual shows refilling from the caliper using a "bubble-free injector" tool...from the pics this sure looks like a sryinge with a tube. My question is how do I make/know such a tool is bubble-free? Second, it states squeezing out the air of the tube from caliper to the reservoir. Guess my question is...how will I know ever know if all the air is out? I have never done this before and already feel like I bite off more than I can chew. While I could certainly get it towed to the dealer, I want know how to do this for myself and learn from my mistake. Help.

Andy

let me start by referencing you to page #34.23 in your manual.
What BMW simply does is run a piece of 1/4" clear tubing from the rear caliper bleed nipple to the reservoir and re-circulate the fluid to get the air out!!

There is reference to BMW part# 34 2 541. The damn thing is only a reservoir cap set up for 1/4" tubing!!

Bruce C
'04 K1200RS Capri Blue(totaled)
2008 Triumph Sprint ST
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 9:03 am Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by brucecha
Andy

let me start by referencing you to page #34.23 in your manual.
What BMW simply does is run a piece of 1/4" clear tubing from the rear caliper bleed nipple to the reservoir and re-circulate the fluid to get the air out!!

There is reference to BMW part# 34 2 541. The damn thing is only a reservoir cap set up for 1/4" tubing!!
Okay...you pointing this out made a light bulb come on...my plan I think will be similar. Hook the one end of the tube to the bleeder nipple on the caliper, the other to the tube submerged into the reservoir and just keep pumping the brake. Would it make any difference in doing this on residual brakes (without the bike on) or with the servos doing the work? Just trying to find that warm and fuzzy feeling that I know I have air free brake (or at least enough to get me to the dealer to do a pressure test).
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 9:56 am
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Originally Posted by andy45320
Okay...you pointing this out made a light bulb come on...my plan I think will be similar. Hook the one end of the tube to the bleeder nipple on the caliper, the other to the tube submerged into the reservoir and just keep pumping the brake. Would it make any difference in doing this on residual brakes (without the bike on) or with the servos doing the work? Just trying to find that warm and fuzzy feeling that I know I have air free brake (or at least enough to get me to the dealer to do a pressure test).
You have the idea.

In at leat 3 places it is mentioned to bleed the brake via the servo pump and to wait until the self-diagnosis is complete before you start bleeding. Also to fill the bleed hose with virtually no pressure to fill the hose and re-fill the reservoir. Then vary the pressure until all air is expelled. There is a caution of foaming the brake fluid in the hose. I would just be careful of getting a lot of foaming in the reservoir.

One other thing, I would only submerge the return hose enough to prevent air from going back into the hose and not too far into the reservoir to have the air get sucked into the servo hose.

I picked up a cheap "one-man brake bleed kit" from NAPA for under $10.00(just a $1.00 plastic one-way valve and a piece of tubing). It works pretty good for preventing air getting sucked back into the system.

Do you think it was possible you got some air into the control circuits? Keep that in the back of your head, if after bleeding they still don't feel right.

Bruce C
'04 K1200RS Capri Blue(totaled)
2008 Triumph Sprint ST

Last edited by brucecha; May 11th, 2006 at 10:03 am.
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 11:12 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
I know the procedure is a lot more difficult for EVO, but the only two devices I've heard of are the vacuum bleeder (which I use) which you fit on the bleed niple and 'pulls' fluid back from the reservoir.
The manual I have doesn't address using vacuum on the wheel circuits, but it warns not to use "vacuum extraction" on the control circuits. I would assume it's referring to the Mityvac method.

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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 12:23 pm Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by brucecha
Do you think it was possible you got some air into the control circuits? Keep that in the back of your head, if after bleeding they still don't feel right.
Ugh...this just gets worse and worse. My guess is I will have air in the control as well since it dropped below the level and they share the same reseivoir. From the 'Filling the rear control circuit' section in the manual, there is the following note:

"The rear wheel circuit and control circuit have a shared expansion tank.
The rear wheel circuit must be filled from the brake calliper (a 34.18)."

That to me means, get the wheel circuit air free and bleed properly first. Then do the rear control circuit

Should I just do the rear control circuit and not the other two rear abs circuits?

Last edited by andy45320; May 11th, 2006 at 12:34 pm.
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 12:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy45320
Ugh...this just gets worse and worse. My guess is I will have air in the control as well since it dropped below the level and they share the same reseivoir. From the 'Filling the rear control circuit' section in the manual, there is the following note:

"The rear wheel circuit and control circuit have a shared expansion tank.
The rear wheel circuit must be filled from the brake calliper (a 34.18)."

That to me means, get the wheel circuit air free and bleed properly first. Then do the rear control circuit

Should I just do the rear control circuit and not the other two rear abs circuits?
OK, this is just some off-hand thinking on my part. We agree that the rear wheel control and wheel cylinder have a common reservoir. But it has TWO hoses coming out of it. I think the hose that goes straight down to the rear master cylinder is the source of fluid for the control circuit. and the hose that goes behind the inner rear fender is to the rear servo.

If you didn't get the reservoir upside down, bone dry, the hose that goes to the rear master cylinder should not have gotten any air in it.

Just squeeze the hose to the master cylinder a couple of times and see if any bubbles come out. If none, I would try the bike the way it is, thinking there is no air in the control circuit.

One other thing is if when you are trying to circulate brake fluid and nothing happens, STOP EVERYTHING. There would be a chance that the rear servo pump is air bound and cavitating.
Then you would have to revert to backfilling the system from the wheel cylinder.

Bruce C
'04 K1200RS Capri Blue(totaled)
2008 Triumph Sprint ST
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 1:01 pm
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Nobody's saying it's simple, you're just about to go up the learning curve real quick, then become an expert! Imagine you've replaced all the main components and have air and no fluid in the system. You can't get much worse.

"The rear wheel circuit must be filled from the brake calliper (a 34.18)."

I've not got your procedure (or your EVO, thank goodness), but does that really mean fluid goes IN at the caliper?? Which was the impression I got from your first post until brucecha said push the fluid out through the caliper. I'll make this up and you choose if you buy in or not: Bubble free means like any hypo, you tap the sides when vertical to get trapped air to the top, then push the plunger slowly until fluid gets to the top of the connection tube, release bleed nipple a very small amount until fluid starts to just appear, attach tube, open blewad nipple a bit more and inject fluid. But would this still work through a Speedbleeder?

For anybody reading these posts who may try hooking up tube to their stock bleed nipples, this must only be done with Speedbleeders fitted 'cos they have valves inside. It's generally not good practice to re-circulate used fluid since impurities can collect in the system near the bleed points, bleeding is also a 'new' for 'old' flushing operation.

This seems to be one bike where air can stick in places, including the master cylinder itself, and no amount of pumping seems to move it free. Usually I use short sharp downward presses on the pedal or brake lever because of this.



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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2006, 1:19 pm
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Originally Posted by voxmagna
I've not got your procedure (or your EVO, thank goodness), but does that really mean fluid goes IN at the caliper??
After reading the "Filling rear wheel circuit" section of my manual, it sure seems that way.

Unusual, to say the least.

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