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Discussion Starter #41
Injectors are still at shop being cleaned. Waiting for parts from Motorworks.

Attached are pictures of the HALL Sensor wiring and shrink wrap I put on the bare wires I found.

Checked wiring and used OXGAURD on the connections.

I've attached a picture of the rubber that holds the wiring inside the lower electrical box. I did not reinstall the because of space inside the box but have nicely back in there and "switch" wiring all taped up.

While I wait for parts I'm going to tape the pan off and inspect the crank, bearing and all that. I'll send pictures of that as soon as I inspect - probably tomorrow.

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #42
OK

Had to do it!

Pulled the crankcase cover and confirmed the conrods have the upgraded cold fractured connecting rods with the Torx bolts! No problem seen in there including Conrod #2.

Anything else I should look at? Its nice and clean in there!

Dan
 

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OK

Had to do it!

Pulled the crankcase cover and confirmed the conrods have the upgraded cold fractured connecting rods with the Torx bolts! No problem seen in there including Conrod #2.

Anything else I should look at? Its nice and clean in there!

Dan
On a 1999, i was 99% sure that you had the new type connecting rods. There is really not much else to check there except cleaning the surface area of metal and rubber gasket. BE CAREFULL with these egine cover Torx bolts as they have shoulder (like the opposite valve cover) and they should not be torqued more than 9 NM (6 Ft/lb). If their individual rubber is still good, it will compress just enough once the bolts hits the shoulder at proper torque. As always, you torque from inside / center of cover toward outside in x-cross pattern Up-Down, center toward left, center toward right.

NO NEED TO REMOVE THIS COVER: Next time, just remove the black oil fill plug, use a good / strong flashlight and you should see connecting rod of number 2 or number 3 cyclinder - you may need to rotate rear wheel in 6th gear on center-stand to bring a rod in proper view. If any of the rod has the 2 Torx bolts on either side, then you can assume all 4 cylinders have it ;-)

History from last 18 years on 2 other forums has shown that the last month of the old type rods was between mid-year of 1998 to September 1998 (at the latest). However, BMW has never published an "official" recall or any available Service-Bulletin - somehow this info was garded inside their dealer network only. By now, very few of these old timers mechanics working in dealers in 1997-1998 period can remember this anomaly of early K1200RS engines - or they have retired by now...
 

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Sailor, a trick I learned from Vox years ago was to give the Torx engine cover bolts a gentle cook up in water with a little detergent to get rid of the oil on them. The heating rejuvenates and restores the rubber to its original shape, and it seemed to work well enough for me. Another option for pesky leaking bolts is to slip a washer in front of the rubber to improve compression.
 
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Discussion Starter #45
Ok I'm BACK.

Received new parts (OEM Fuel Filter, Manifold O-rings and replacement lower radiator hose).

Reinstalled HALL Sensor front plate and new Lower Radiator hose and filled with antifreeze.

All wiring has been checked and pins lubricated.

New Fuel Filter installed inside tank (No disconnected or bad hose found inside tank).

Removed and cleaned intake manifolds and intake surfaces, then replaced orings with new ones (old orings did look ok).

Cleaned fuel rail and checked/lubricated fuel pressure regulator seal.

Removed Chinese fuel injectors and reinstalled cleaned OEM fuel injectors (See test/clean results).

Throttle bodies (cleaned again) and fuel injector rail lubricated and reinstalled on intake manifolds.

TVA tested and results were (33.79mm fully closed and 41.86mm fully opened). See TVA reinstalled on TB. TB link (Never adjusted - See blue mark) appears to be pushing back on the TVA spring and I cannot slide a piece of paper in between the two.

Note that when Tb's were reinstalled I adjusted the Throttle cable and TB's snapping back nicely.

That's where I'm at until I see comments.

Ready to reinstall airbox and gas tank and see how it runs.

Thx Dan
 

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Picture #9, the little tub of red rubber lube. Very good choice. I installed my injectors in a K13S and one O-ring snagged and kinked itself. Lots of gas escaped in that fiasco.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Thx Beech,

But I didn't see anyone respond to this statement!

TVA tested and results were (33.79mm fully closed and 41.86mm fully opened). See TVA reinstalled on TB. TB link (Never adjusted - See blue mark) appears to be pushing back on the TVA spring and I cannot slide a piece of paper in between the two.

After testing again today, it appears that the throttle snaps back and pushing on the TVA spring and then the reading is "about" 32.54mm on the gauge.

Should I do anything with the:surprise TVA prior to putting airbox/tank back on and starting the bike?
 

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Sailor did make a pdf about the TPS and TVA. If you have an oryginal tva on your bike and the screw pushing on the tva has the blue paint on it, dont touch it belive me, if you do you get to a whole another world of pain of hanging or lowering idle. If You tva screw hasent been messesed up you wont get a piece of paper at this point, the piec of paper is only viable if you are seting a new tva. So as in Sailors pdf you set the NEW tva to the lowest position and then you set the gap of 0.15mm or a piece of paper betwen the tip of the screw and the tip of the tva, then you add a 1 full turn on the screw and lock it.
 

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Thx Beech,

But I didn't see anyone respond to this statement!

TVA tested and results were (33.79mm fully closed and 41.86mm fully opened). See TVA reinstalled on TB. TB link (Never adjusted - See blue mark) appears to be pushing back on the TVA spring and I cannot slide a piece of paper in between the two.

After testing again today, it appears that the throttle snaps back and pushing on the TVA spring and then the reading is "about" 32.54mm on the gauge.

Should I do anything with the:surprise TVA prior to putting airbox/tank back on and starting the bike?
Since 2017, after further tests on more throttle-bodies (from other K1200RS), I have modified / improved slighly the older version of the PDF document about the TVA.

No major changes (see last page of document), however in your case take note that:
- number of turns on screw pushing on TVA (from arm on TB 3) has been modified,
- suggested to also do an added check for TPS volts reading at max TVA piston opening

As explained in document, keep in mind that setting the TVA manually is a last option when all else fails... none of this should be touched unless we are 99% sure the engine is well tuned AND there are no intake air-leaks.

I made all these tests and created these documents because no dealer will help you when things have been tampered with - even they have no specs like this. The orders/procedure from the mothership is to change/set TPS if needed , change/set the TVA as needed based on fault codes. Otherwise if needed (nothing else seems to work and they believe/think TB has been messed with) they install a brand new TB assy from factory ($US$ 1292 or $US$ 1421 if cruise-control option)

Even if you follow my document perfectly, there could be many variables on your throttle-bodies that are not like a new stock one from factory. The most common other issues are:
1) the bracket holding the TVA has beem bent inward or outward when the TB assy was pulled from the lower manifolds (a lot of force is sometimes needed and some will use this bracket as leverage to pull - not good...)

2) the main idle Stop screw has been tampered with (it is located below the rail - attached to the arm of Tb #3 - with blue paint from factory)

3) one or more of the 3 linking screw adjusted between each TB (on top) has been tampered with. These have blue paint BUT it tends to flake or be missing over a long time (fuel, oil and heat)

4) Of course, the TPS also needs to be set, at main idle stop point, BEFORE the TVA is set

I have used this on many TB assy including some with unknown history bought used on EBAY. What worked for me might not work in your specific situation - too many variables with each engine / EFI system depending who has messed with it in the past. Troubleshooting at a distance is very difficult ;-)

See attached PDF file...
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Ok Sailor

No major changes (see last page of document), however in your case take note that:
- number of turns on screw pushing on TVA (from arm on TB 3) has been modified, ANS: As previously stated - That screw on TB3 arm has never been modified and unless "someone - not me" has turned it and replaced the blue paint exactly as it came from factory then it's never been touched. Again note that the only DTC that ever showed on the Motoscan app was for the (TVA - Idle Sw) which indicated - P1506 Idle Speed Control Valve Open Solenoid Control Circuit Signal High
and you do not have that listed on your data sheet.

- suggested to also do an added check for TPS volts reading at max TVA piston opening. ANS: Performed voltage test @ 2V DC with piston fully extended. When negative touched to ground I see voltage flash as high as 1.8 but immediately goes back to reading 1. What is that telling us???

As explained in document, keep in mind that setting the TVA manually is a last option when all else fails... none of this should be touched unless we are 99% sure the engine is well tuned AND there are no intake air-leaks. ANS: Yes understand.

I made all these tests and created these documents because no dealer will help you when things have been tampered with - even they have no specs like this. The orders/procedure from the mothership is to change/set TPS if needed , change/set the TVA as needed based on fault codes. Otherwise if needed (nothing else seems to work and they believe/think TB has been messed with) they install a brand new TB assy from factory ($US$ 1292 or $US$ 1421 if cruise-control option). ANS: Acknowledged!

Even if you follow my document perfectly, there could be many variables on your throttle-bodies that are not like a new stock one from factory.
ANS: Ok understand!!

The most common other issues are:
1) the bracket holding the TVA has beem bent inward or outward when the TB assy was pulled from the lower manifolds (a lot of force is sometimes needed and some will use this bracket as leverage to pull - not good...) ANS: Bracket holding TVA is straight!

2) the main idle Stop screw has been tampered with (it is located below the rail - attached to the arm of Tb #3 - with blue paint from factory). ANS: This Stop screw still has the factory blue paint visible on it so it hasn't been touched.

3) one or more of the 3 linking screw adjusted between each TB (on top) has been tampered with. These have blue paint BUT it tends to flake or be missing over a long time (fuel, oil and heat). ANS: As previously shown, the blue paint is still visible on these linking screws and they haven't been touched!

4) Of course, the TPS also needs to be set, at main idle stop point, BEFORE the TVA is set. ANS: TPS was set with TVA removed at Stop point and that has been reported.

I have used this on many TB assy including some with unknown history bought used on EBAY. What worked for me might not work in your specific situation - too many variables with each engine / EFI system depending who has messed with it in the past. Troubleshooting at a distance is very difficult ;-). ANS: Understand but I see no indication where the EZFI system was messed with previously and as the current owner I've only removed the TB assembly and other reported components to perform normal maintenance and replace fuel filter, QC's, fuel lines, plugs, wires, valve buckets, and coil. Plus performed indicated test.

Again I really do appreciate all the help!

Dan
 

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ANS: As previously stated - That screw on TB3 arm has never been modified and unless "someone - not me" has turned it and replaced the blue paint exactly as it came from factory then it's never been touched. Again note that the only DTC that ever showed on the Motoscan app was for the (TVA - Idle Sw) which indicated - P1506 Idle Speed Control Valve Open Solenoid Control Circuit Signal High
and you do not have that listed on your data sheet.


Performed voltage test @ 2V DC with piston fully extended. When negative touched to ground I see voltage flash as high as 1.8 but immediately goes back to reading 1. What is that telling us???
...
.....

Again I really do appreciate all the help!

Dan
Will reply only about the 2 points quoted above. I think these are the only one that seems to need further clarifications:

1) You cannot compare the code that I list in both of my documents (the one about TPS and the one about TVA) with any of the MotoScan Codes. The codes I list are from GS911 and they are the same that a BMW dealer would see on his own system (furnished by BMW mothership).

Motoscan is showing codes that are "generic" as used in OBD2 protocol / systems for Cars / trucks. These are classified by family or group (1500 to 1599 are always related to idle control and speed control). Although these old Motronic 2.x were NEVER OBD2 compliant (these were originally designed by BOSCH in the late 80s for cars), Motoscan is trying to convert internally to make it appear to be OBD2 compliant.

I do not how Motoscan comes up with these "generic" OBD2 codes conversions (from the internal BOSH/BMW codes) and I do not really care in this particular case (although I am somewhat familiar with OBD2 on cars). GS911 is much closer to the BMW dealer system for their Motorcycles EFI systems.


2) The 2vdc is the measurement at the TPS Pin#1 (Volmemeter positive) compare to battery Ground (voltmeter negative) when the TVA is fully extended (installed / bolted but unplugged so Motronic does not try to move piston). You do this the same way you would to set TPS at 0.34 to 0.38 volts at idle stop (with TVA removed). But this time you are reading the resulting TPS value with TVA fully extended. You need to acheive just a tad above 2.0 volts ( "just a tad above" as a safety magin for tolerances / temp variations).

Assuming your TPS is set correctly at idle stop (as a 1st Basic step) IF you cannot achieve 2.1 volts at max TVA, then either:
- the TVA is not fully extending
- the TVA bracket is bent
- the screw behind TVA piston is not set properly
- the base 5.0 volts reference voltage funished by Motronic at TPS is not OK (5.0 volts supply at TPS is on Pin #2)
- the electrical or EFI system has other problems...

MAKE SURE to reset the TVA to low position AND also remove EFI fuse for 20 minutes before your next Ignition ON cycle as the above check will generate faults codes. Instead of the fuse removal, of course you can erase the fault codes if you have proper tool.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Ok

2) The 2vdc is the measurement at the TPS Pin#1 (Volmemeter positive) compare to battery Ground (voltmeter negative) when the TVA is fully extended (installed / bolted but unplugged so Motronic does not try to move piston). You do this the same way you would to set TPS at 0.34 to 0.38 volts at idle stop (with TVA removed). ANS: TPS reads 0.358v with TB's fully closed and TVA removed.


But this time you are reading the resulting TPS value with TVA fully extended. You need to acheive just a tad above 2.0 volts ( "just a tad above" as a safety magin for tolerances / temp variations). ANS: Retested TVA fully extended and setting MM to 20vDC (2vDC giving the incorrect reading). Now its reads a steady "2.64v". hope that is ok!!

- the TVA is not fully extending - Extending to 44.05
- the TVA bracket is bent - Can't see where its bend anywhere. Don't know what else to say!
- the screw behind TVA piston is not set properly - ok possibly off a bit but threads show blue paint.
- the base 5.0 volts reference voltage funished by Motronic at TPS is not OK (5.0 volts supply at TPS is on Pin #2) - 5.75v on pin#2
- the electrical or EFI system has other problems... Ok hope not.
 

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Ok

- the TVA is not fully extending - Extending to 44.05
- the TVA bracket is bent - Can't see where its bend anywhere. Don't know what else to say!
- the screw behind TVA piston is not set properly - ok possibly off a bit but threads show blue paint.
- the base 5.0 volts reference voltage funished by Motronic at TPS is not OK (5.0 volts supply at TPS is on Pin #2) - 5.75v on pin#2
- the electrical or EFI system has other problems... Ok hope not.
Both the 5 volts reference voltage (on Pin 2) and the resulting TPS at TVA full extension are HIGHER than Normal...
Although it is only about 15% off compare to the "normal / stable" 5 volts, this leads me to belive somethig is strange. I have never seen so much above 5 volts.

SO EITHER: your multimeter is lying (on a low end common MutilMeter an error of 5% would be more acceptable)
OR... assuming the Multimeter is precise (not convinced..) the Motronic 5 volts reference voltage would not controlled properly (this is internal to ECU)

QUESTION: what is the TPS volt reading when TVA is bolted in place but parked at LOW position ??
(TVA connector needs to be disconnected otherwise Motronic will try to push on TVA)

Reason, I am worrying about this last check is the fact the TPS voltage is higher than it should at TVA full extension. You read 2.64 - range of 2.1 to 2.3 would be more normal. Hence, I am assuming something is not right at the low end also. Although this TPS value (volts on Pin 1) when TVA is parked at low is not documented in my PDF, I know it should not be higher than 0.55 volts otherwise Idle could be constantly too high - in particular when engine is warm / hot.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Hello

QUESTION: what is the TPS volt reading when TVA is bolted in place but parked at LOW position ?? Ans: The TPS voltage with TVA bolted on and at its lowest setting is 0.46

I will see if I can get another MM and check numbers with that one. I was also concerned with that 5.75v number. Thought I'd previously check that voltage and reported earlier on it here where it was at the 5vDC. Let me look back! I don't see where I took a picture of that!!
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Yes, I reported on the voltage on PIn#2 in post #37! No picture added!

Checked the voltage coming from Motronic and it shows 5V to pin #2.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Checked with another MM and voltage to the TPS looked good - 5.05V

Put together and started bike. Seemed to run ok until it warmed up and then I started idling high again and backfiring. I cant upload the .MOV file or I would.

Shut off and tested TPS again w/o TVA attached and it was up over .400. Pulled the TB's to get to the TPS screws to adjust. Had problems getting adjustment right so I swapped the TPS out for one I got used off of EBAY. I've got that one adjusted now and will put back together and run bike again.

I'm not sure what's wrong now.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Got Tb's back on after again adjusting TPS which currently is reading .354v with TVA Removed.

Installed TVA and ensured piston is fully back and get a reading of .450v.

With TVA connected, when I turn ignition on I see the TVA piston is moved out to indicate a TPS value of 1.148v. Is that ok?????

And I had a question regarding TB blades when throttle fully opened! Should the blades open to fully perpendicular? As shown they don't open that far.
 

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Got Tb's back on after again adjusting TPS which currently is reading .354v with TVA Removed.

Installed TVA and ensured piston is fully back and get a reading of .450v.

With TVA connected, when I turn ignition on I see the TVA piston is moved out to indicate a TPS value of 1.148v. Is that ok?????

And I had a question regarding TB blades when throttle fully opened! Should the blades open to fully perpendicular? As shown they don't open that far.
First lets begin with 2 points needing clarifications in your post above:

1) in the fully open (full throttle) mode, the butterflies should be very close to 90 degrees - almost perpendicular maybe 85 to 88 degrees - hard to measure BUT your photo shows something is NOT ok. I have a spare TB assy here in garage that I have rebuilt - I just checked it to compare and I can see that your arm is not fully touching the rear rail bracket (see my RED arrow in your photo that I have cropped for demonstration).

Either something is bent (tb shaft or arm behind TVA) -OR- yours has the classic mechanical stop caused by incorrect clamp positions below OR above TB assy . Some of the LOWER and UPPER clamps can cause mechanical restriction when throttle is fully open IF THEY ARE NOT POSITION PROPERLY (see my 2nd and 3rd photo).


2) Just when the igniton is turned ON, the EFI unit will look at the engine coolant temp sensor (behind cylinder head #4) and decide how far to push the TVA to open the Throttle slighly open ABOVE normal idle. The colder the engine , the more it will open.

Even when engine is already warm (from previous ride), the EFI will still open it more than normal idle RPM and will lower the TVA just after engine starts. You can see this small spike at Tachometer during 1 to 3 seconds after start - this so called "fast idle" will last much longer when engine is cold.

Hence, when the engine is very cold, you could see just above 2 volts at TPS after ignition ON - this is about the MAX TVA piston extension. When the engine is only cool (like sitting overnight at 70 F), then you would see less than 2 volts TPS voltage (like in your photo).

Although I have built a table of TEMP (F) verssus resistance for the engine coolant sensor, I have never done such table for the corresponding TPS values when the Key is turned ON (for various engine temp). Roughly, we can say the hotter the coolant is, the closer the TPS will be to 0.60 volts at rest. On a cold start (in the morning) anything between 1 and 2 volts is possible depending on the coolant temp "as seen" by the EFI unit.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Thanks you Sailor!

I'll take your pictures and position the clamps exactly how you've outlined. Then check throttle opening.

Understand what you've explained about the voltage.
 

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Thanks you Sailor!

I'll take your pictures and position the clamps exactly how you've outlined. Then check throttle opening.

Understand what you've explained about the voltage.
For the 4 clamps below the Tb assy, there are other acceptable patterns to avoid interferecence with TB moving parts. I have shown 1 possible in my previous photo.

The trick is to shine in the area with a good / strong light and move the trottle grip from fully close to fully open several time to check the shafts / parts moving.

Doing this type of checks for ANY moving parts is NOT rocket science - just common sense and good mechanical skills ANYTIME you remove / re-install something with many moving parts (like a wheel , shim and spacer and calipers holders...).
 
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