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Discussion Starter #61
Ok I deserve that response and sorry for the stupid questions I've asked. I guess when I've done all I've done and bike still isn't running properly I begin grasping at straw. Like asking stupid questions as to whether TB blades need to open fully!! Believe me you wont see any more questions that aren't important or valid.

I'm well aware of use if common sense and good mechanical skills. Anyway thanks for your help to date,

Not sure why I flipped the clamp on TB 3 the last time I remounted the TB's, but though it may have slipped off and that putting it on that way was "a way" where it would not interfere. I WAS WRONG!

Mounting the clamp to the right side made the arm come in contact with the long screw from the clamp (DUH).

Anyway fixed in 5 minutes.
27306
27307
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Oh and one more thing! The bike was "NOT" put back together and run like that!!!

I would "never" put "anything" back in service with Throttles, brakes or Wheels +++ improperly installed and not functioning properly. It's my life on that seat.
 

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Oh and one more thing! The bike was "NOT" put back together and run like that!!!

I would "never" put "anything" back in service with Throttles, brakes or Wheels +++ improperly installed and not functioning properly. It's my life on that seat.
Sorry, I was NOT pointing ONLY at you personnaly.
When posting about problems / questions, I ALWAYS keep in mind these 2 items:
1) If the question / problem is something I have seen many times in K1200RS-LT-GT forums during last 15 years, THEN many other reader are probably doing the same "potential" error (or will later do it when repair time comes).

2) Over time a good forum with good content (not only chatting) becomes a knowledge base that migh be scanned / searched later by new member having similar problem / symptoms. Thus, I am trying as much as possibel to include pitfalls and common mistakes I have seen repeated.

I rarely use sacarm unles someone is very rude on the forum. But sometimes I feel a need to use "stronger" language to get the point across - like the one you have just witess. When working on any motorcycle your life depends on it being fixed properly. Some mistakes will only cost you $$$ (in parts or labor), other mistakes can kiil you (brakes, suspension, frame).

Having worked on motorcycles (simple to complex) for about 40 years, I have seen my share of bad work and dangerous work - in some cases coming out certified dealers.

Every one needs to be attentive and careful BOTH when fixing and riding. ENOUGH SAID.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
I've put TVA back on and run the bike and it is idling too high. Around 14K fully warmed up. I notice after shutting down and tested TPS value with TVA installed that it is at .080 (where you've indicated it should not be over .55v.) The TVA piston not fully closing and leaving the TB screws up off the TB plate. I pulled the TVA again and measured piston and discover the value is 37.81mm (approx) and when I "reset" piston manually with 9v battery it reads about 36mm.

Also checked TPS value with TVA removed and it read .33v.
 

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I've put TVA back on and run the bike and it is idling too high. Around 14K fully warmed up. I notice after shutting down and tested TPS value with TVA installed that it is at .080 (where you've indicated it should not be over .55v.) The TVA piston not fully closing and leaving the TB screws up off the TB plate. I pulled the TVA again and measured piston and discover the value is 37.81mm (approx) and when I "reset" piston manually with 9v battery it reads about 36mm.

Also checked TPS value with TVA removed and it read .33v.
I think there is confusion about the TPS values with TVA installed - the conditions where / when to measure are important. The 0.55 volt (a real maximum) at TPS that I reference in my earlier post is valid in ALL hese SPECIFIC CONDITIONS - this is in order to make a static check of screw behind TVA (attached to TB arm #3):
1) The TVA has been unplugged and manually (with separate battery) brought down to lowest Piston setting,

2) The lowerst setting measurement of Piston length is very close to 36 mm (1.42 inch) as documented in an earlier PDF document I had posted with photos

3) The TVA is bolted on TB assy but NOT connected to take measurement at TPS (otherwise ECU is pushing on TVA to open TB a bit more by design and to help fast idle as needed if cold).

4) The Throttle grip is opened / closed a few times to recheck reading - either the TB are hitting the hard idle stop screw (hidden under the rail with TB arm of #3) OR the TB are hitting the TVA piston tip. If yours is hitting the TVA piston tip (with closed throttle), then you may see a value closer to this 0.55 max, On the other hand, if the TVA adjust screw is set at lowest, then you will a value closer to 0.38 volts.

This full range (0.38 to 0.55) is possible and depends on many factors like:
- the screw behind TVA is adjusted a bit on the high side
- engine is cold or warm (expansion on many parts involved around TB will vary a bit with temp)
- the Piston is not going to its lower position (this why I have published normal TVA piston length to compare)
- the cable free play is too little (thus restricting TB from closing completely).
- wear on parts with time / age (loose TB shaft bushing - TVA internal worm gear wear....)

IMPORTANT: Once the TVA is installed, plugged properly, and igniton is turned ON, the TPS volts value you will read at this point is not the same as earlier range above. When the ECU is controlling TVA, it will always push piston to acheive EITHER:
  • higher fast idle depending how cold the block is (from engine coolant sensor value). This can go as high as 2.2 volts at TPS when TVA is fully extended on a very cold morning and RPM could reach 1500 for a short while (ex: coolant sensor sees 50 deg F or less)
  • a short fast idle for 1 to 3 second just after start (even if engine is already warm)
  • when engine is running , a minimum idle speed of 950 to 1050 (with a warm/hot engine , the TPS would read 0.58 to 0.70 roughly at idle)
CONCLUSION: if you saw a piston extended to 37.81 mm after shutting ignition AND the TVA was plugged, then there is no problem. This is normal and part of how the ECU manages the TB position always above the mechnical idle stop. When engine is shut off (igniton key OFF), the ECU does NOT park the TVA piston to its lowest setting.

However, when making all these tests manually, it always better to park the TVA at its lowest setting AND remove the ECU fuse for 20 minutes or more. So at next ignition ON cycle, the ECU will re-read everyting as cleared and will be forced to find new proper TVA and TPS position. IN some cases , it can take a few short rides (engine ON, OFF cycles) to get a better idle - there is a simple TPS range learning process embedded in these ECU when old memory is cleared.

Even with above paragrapgh, I would say any idle that does not come down below 1250 RPM after a 1 minute warm-up (if engine was cold) should be investigated - most probable is often unwanted intake air-leaks (many sources for these with age / mileage).
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Ok Back again!

Built a Smoke Tester and hooked up at the "Snorkle Break" on the Air intake and push the smoke down into the TB's. After a couple minutes I witnessed smoke at the top of TB 1 and 2. That is the only place I saw any smoke escaping. I pulled the Air Intake and found one rectangular slot in the bottom where the air was escaping. So I closed it up with duct tape, reset the TPS to 0.32V and reinstalled the air intake.

I now have a perfectly "idling" bike which continues the Surge and run rough appearing to not be running on all cylinders.

Motoscan app is showing no Error codes being generated by the ECU.

I pulled the plugs and they look ok as well as testing the Plug wires.
Plug Wire 1 - 5.77K Ohms
Plug Wire 2 - 6.19K Ohms
Plug Wire 3 - 6.09K Ohms
Plug Wire 4 - 6.22K Ohms

Interesting, I attempted to perform the Hall Sensor test by putting bike in 6th Gear and turning the back wheel by hand and I do not here the fuel pump priming!!! I've done the before and also reviewed Sailor's Utube again so I know I'm doing it properly. Bad Sensor???

Thx Dan
 

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Take a hard look at your ignition wires. A gray spot with a needle point black spot is a hole where the current jumps to ground in the rocker cover. I suggest a new set of wires from Euromotoelectric. 1/4 the cost from bmw. This could lower the voltage at the plug enough to cause missing.
 

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Ok Back again!
...
.....
I now have a perfectly "idling" bike which continues the Surge and run rough appearing to not be running on all cylinders.
....
I pulled the plugs and they look ok as well as testing the Plug wires.
Plug Wire 1 - 5.77K Ohms
Plug Wire 2 - 6.19K Ohms
Plug Wire 3 - 6.09K Ohms
Plug Wire 4 - 6.22K Ohms

Interesting, I attempted to perform the Hall Sensor test by putting bike in 6th Gear and turning the back wheel by hand and I do not here the fuel pump priming!!! I've done the before and also reviewed Sailor's Utube again so I know I'm doing it properly. Bad Sensor???
Ok we have 2 separate issues here:
1) based on history of problems on these K1200RS-LT, checking the resistance of the plug wires only give half the picture (any wire / conductor under load can behave differently than static resistance test). Beech is right that these often need to be replaced with age as they get wear spots where they rub on cylinder head.
Are you familiar with the water spray / mist test while engine is running in the dark (to see spark jump across wires or engine block)?

Causing engine roughness, ANOTHER COMMON ERROR I have seen many times on forum is the incorrect connection of one or more of the 4 injectors connectors (top of injectors). In some cases the injector connector was not fully seated (fully pushed), AND in other cases one of the injectors connector had been reversed (duing maintenance / repair) with the tank-vent / canister purge valve - the wires colors of all 4 injectors are the same, HOWEVER the wire color of the other identical shape connector of purge vent valve are: one is GREEN+WHITE, the other is GREEN+BLUE.


2) Not specified in my video on Hall sensor tests (wheel rotation) is the fact the ECU must be in "start mode" where no start interlocks are active for the Hall effect sensor (and pump priming) to take place. These interlocks are many: in addition to ECU fuse , kill switch, neutral + side-stand , you also have optional anti-thief Alarm system.

IMPORTANT: By far easiest way to confim ECU is in start mode is the following: immediately after ignition ON (before you press start button), check if RED engine coolant/temp warning is ON (it should). If it is not ON, then engine will turn over BUT will NOT start (no Hall effect signal and no pump priming either).

OF COURSE, it is impossible to say that an engine can start and idle rough AND AT SAME TIME say that you have no Hall-sensor signal whatsoever - something does not compute here.... HOWEVER, you may have one side of the hall effect sensor defective (certainly not common) and thus have ignition / spark only on 2 cylinders (one side of hall effect plate does cylinder 1-4 together, the other side does cylinder 2-3). If one side of hall effect is defective, the wheel rotation test will show only 3 or 4 pump priming cycles for 1 full rear wheel rotation WHEN ENGAGE IN 6th GEAR (instead of 7 to 8 priming cycles).

Unlike on the R1100xx boxer models, the Hall-effect sensor plate of the K1200 have been very reliable. Except for 2 cases of "self-inflicted" damage I have seen on forums, I have never seen or heard of any failure in last 18 years. SO, this is NOT where I would place a bet - eliminate all other simple and more probable stuff before. Has any work been done recently to remove the timing chain-cover OR any work in the electrical junction box under fuel tank (where the Hall effect sensor connector is located) ??

27490


WARNINGS - NOTES related to this video:
1) Make sure the Fuel delivery and Pressure pressure is good: can you hear the fuel pump priming when you turn the ignition ON - also you should hear the 2 to 3 seconds pump priming every time you move the kill switch from left (or right) to center position. 2) Fuel delivery must continue when the engine turns: this can be checked based on the fact the Motronic use the Hall-Effect-Sensor (HES) signal to continue running the fuel pump.

Although I have never seen a K1200 engine starts during this test, you are potentially vulnerable because of you position - BE VERY CAREFULL when you try this. Also, if you are too forcefull (or push too hard) THE BIKE MAY FALL FORWARD from the centerstand.
1) Bike on centerstand
2) Manually put transmission in 6th gear (might required a bit of wheel rotation to mesh the gears)
3) Ignition ON and Kill switch in the normal RUN (center) position
4) Behind the bike, on you knee, rotate the rear wheel (forward bike rotation) - you are working against the engine compression so you will need both hands. DO NOT put you hands inside or against the mag wheel (in case it would start), just put one hand on each side of the tire, press and rotate forward.

The relationship is not 1:1 (wheel rotation compare to crankshaft rotation) but for 1 full turn of the rear wheel, you should hear the pump priming cycle at least 7 TIMES (based on 6th gear-ratio + final-drive ratio for the K1200RS).

If you hear only 3 or 4 cycles, you may have one of the 2 hall-effect sensors defective. Try with engine hot and also engine cold. In general, if the HES starts to fail in intermittent way, it will do so when hot.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
OK thx for reply and my response,

Ans: The Plug wires are new – I purchased them at EME for $75.00 (the set)! I am familiar with the spray test and have performed this test in the past with old and new wires. Did not see any arching but will perform test again.

Ans: The Injector wires are labeled 1 – 4 and the Canister Purge Valve connector (Green+White/Green+Blue) is labeled (PV Not Used) since I did the Canister removal and plugged off the TB hose connections.

Ans: Nevermind about the HES Test!!! I woke up this morning thinking something was wrong with my testing and realized I left the side stand down when I placed bike on Centerstand. Pulled the sidestand up and tested wheel rotation with priming and I hear it prime 8 times for one rotation. Again performed the test this morning and everything appears good with HES.

Ans: As previousliy reported here, Yes, the Wiring has all been gone through and cleaned up and taped. The Hall sensor was tested following the procedure in the Cylmers manual after “fixing” the wires with shrink wrap”, also Shown here in the forum. Connections all checked as appear to be ok all around. Timing chain cover has not been removed but cam cover removed and procedure used the measure valve clearance and “carefully tie wrapped the cams in two places before removing cam shafts and (moving/installing) newly purchased Valve buckets to adjust valve clearance.

Ans: Here is where I suspect there may be a problem. Yes fuel pressure is good when key is turned on and every time I toggle the kill switch. And again does not appear to be an HES problem.

But I have a fuel pressure gauge on the bike and when I take it for a ride, the fuel pressure needle drops to as low as 30psi and fluctuates as I accelerate. Then it evens back out.

Also I have noticed “the woosh” when I open the gas cap. Remember I’ve been in the tank several time and just put in the 2nd need filter (OEM) and blew air through the overflow and vent hoses inside the tank last time I was in there. I only have a couple gallons of fuel in tank though.
 

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Tank vent plugged following the canisterectomy?

I bet the pump did not like vacuum pumping.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
Hello

Note: I did run the bike with the cap open and saw no difference in performance. And I've have the gas ring up and blew through hoses and air comes out of the vent. Again I've been in there twice to replace fuel filter since the canisterectomy. Also just blew air in two hoses exiting the tank and air comes out the overflow and vent at top of tank. Maybe this isnt a problem???

Also, performed the "spray test" last night in the dark. No arching happening on any of the plug wires and I drenched them! Also spray the coil end and nothing going on there either.

I do notice a quite a bit of white smoke out the tailpipe while warming up which i believe is normal and it goes away after bike comes up to temp.

What to check net is the question! Is it possible there is a the relays? I dont see how since everything seems to be working correctly. I do see the Load relay routing to the coils though???
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Just another reminder, This issue started before any of the "corrective" actions I've taken to get it running properly. So everything I've done has not made it worse or better. Frustrating!!

Problem 1st happened while riding back from a Rally about 40 miles from my house. Mysteriously the problem went away without intervention and I took it to an NHRA race and it came back on my way back home (again about 40 miles from my house).

Then all the "work" started.
 

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...
......
Ans: Here is where I suspect there may be a problem. Yes fuel pressure is good when key is turned on and every time I toggle the kill switch. And again does not appear to be an HES problem.

But I have a fuel pressure gauge on the bike and when I take it for a ride, the fuel pressure needle drops to as low as 30psi and fluctuates as I accelerate. Then it evens back out.

Also I have noticed “the woosh” when I open the gas cap. Remember I’ve been in the tank several time and just put in the 2nd need filter (OEM) and blew air through the overflow and vent hoses inside the tank last time I was in there. I only have a couple gallons of fuel in tank though.
Ok... based on your latest reply, in order to move forward in the process of elimination let us assume the Hall-effect-sensor are good AND the plugs-wires are NOT the cause of the remaining symptoms.

HOWEVER, you just added a very concerning new data value in your latest post about the fuel-pressure: IF INDEED your fuel pressure gauge is connected at proper place AND you are reading 30 PSI at anytime, then this is enough to cause missing / hesitation and roughness. In fact, these Motronic like many modern EFI system of similar design, will not even start if the Fuel-pressure is 10% less than specs.

On The K1200RS-LT, the specs required are constant 51 PSI at the upstream / pressure side hose. The other hose (often called the return hose) has very little pressure and is not important for the purpose of troubleshooting. The pressure is maintained constant by a pump that can do more than 51 PSI, but is controlled / lowered at the fuel-rail by a pressure-regulator (located at end of fuel-rail). If the regulator is functionning properlly, anything above 51 PSI (lets accept +/- 3) is returned to tank via the 2nd hose by a continuous stream.

Engine RPM is irrelevant on the K1100 and K1200 "brick-engine" as the regulator is mechanical and maintains 51 PSI anytime the engine is running (from Hall-effect signal). In fact, you will see 51 PSI just with the 2 seconds fuel pump priming after ignition ON cycle.

FURTHERMORE, if regulator is good and the system integrity is also good (no leak inside tank hoses and none of the 4 injectors are leaking), then your pressure gauge will loose very little pressure even 10 minutes after igniton OFF.

OF COURSE, NOW the MOST DIFFICULT QUESTION is : how do you troubleshoot low pressure - is it the pump , the regulator , a jammed fuel-filter OR the hoses inside the tank (leaking / cracked)? Research this problem for 1 or 2 days instead of just buying replacement parts like many would do... Double-check your assumptions: make sure your fuel-pressure gauge is in fact correct and working properly before you start this process.

See attached photos for a test set-up using a spare set of fuel connectors.

27500


27501


27498


27499
 
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Pull the pump.Tap the output down onto a white rag and see what comes out.Any debris like black carbon from the brushes or powdered copper from the commutators and pump is on its way out.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
Thx Guys,

Will do the testing.

Note: I have "plumbing" correct as shown in attached picture. And I've got the fuel pressure gauge permanently inline at the pressure side of the rail. Note this is a 2nd (smaller) gauge that I placed there because the 1st was so big. Anyway that may be suspect.

Also the fuel pressure regulator has been off that rail several times to check it (not much to check) and rubber gasket lubed.

I agree the pump may be going bad and "hopefully" that's the problem here. Shown is the pump and hoses last time out for filter replacement.
 

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I hope you replaced the Orings on the FPR anytime you pulled it? Most importantly the small one as it has everything to to with the working of the FPR.

And that Oring is quite size specific,not exactly repleacable with Orings from most Oring kits.
 

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Jean, you mentioned the plugs/wires being in good shape. What about checking the coil to wire connection. Have these been pulled and checked? I have seen some unbelievable corrosion on a K100 engine. Probably been checked, but a long shot worth investigating if not already done so.
 

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Jean, you mentioned the plugs/wires being in good shape. What about checking the coil to wire connection. Have these been pulled and checked? I have seen some unbelievable corrosion on a K100 engine. Probably been checked, but a long shot worth investigating if not already done so.
I was only repeating facts what he had posted in a previous post just above mine - he wrote:
"The Plug wires are new – I purchased them at EME for $75.00 (the set)! I am familiar with the spray test and have performed this test in the past with old and new wires. Did not see any arching but will perform test again."

I see your point about corrosion at the coil-to-wire connection (on the K100), however I normally do not include such check as a troibleshooting item as this has not been an issue on the K1200 platform. I always go from most probable, to least - so... of course this could be something to check when/if all the most common stuff seem to be out of question.

In his particular case, he has very recently posted a new VERY IMPORTANT data point about low fuel pressure. I had not dare yet suggest him to buy a fuel-pressure gauge, but it appear he already had one installed. For the moment, given all else that was checked until now, the low fuel-pressure value he has posted is bad enough to make the engine quit completely (assuming his gauge / set-up reading properly).
 

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Agreed, the low fuel pressure reading is of concern and a likely culprit.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
OK

So finally got back to the pressure test for the 1999 BMW K1200RS.

Removed the Fuel pressure gauge at the rail (suspect).
Purchased set of QD from Beemer boneyard and installed in some extra fuel line I had from replacing lines.
Attached to the inner "Feed" side of the tank outlet.

Sailor, followed your written procedures from the BMWLT site.

(1) Assuming gauge is fairly accurate, you should get close to 50 PSI in any tests below. In case of having no other gauge to compare accuracy, I would tolerate values +/-10% above/below IF-AND-ONLY-IF the engine behavior is always good in all running RPM (including cold-start and high RPM acceleration).

Date - 09/21/20


(2) As a first test: engine off, gauge should be connected to a "T" at quick-connector on the pressure side hose (most inside hose at bottom of fuel-pump flange). Turn ignition ON, do NOT start. Check fuel pressure reading after 6 seconds: should be between 45-50 PSI - this is the prime fuel system pressure. Turn ignition OFF.

After 6 seconds 41 PSI


(3) Wait another 2 minutes and note IF gauge reading is losing pressure compare to the earlier priming pressure. It is a close-system and should maintain pressure for many minutes.

After 2 minutes 37 PSI


(4) Do same pressure reading test as above with engine running at various RPM (engine cold and hot). Of course, as it is nearly impossible to ride with this gauge installed, you have to limit the kind of RPM you can test in garage with fuel-pressure gauge connected.

Key on primed ready to Start Cold – 46 PSI
Running cold @ 35 seconds – 53 PSI
Running cold after 4.23 mins – 54 PSI
Running warm (fans on after 8.59 mins @ 4K RPM) – 54 PSI

  • Note “Misfire” appears after warm up of engine.
Running warm after 10.59 minutes @ 4K RPM – 53 PSI


(5) Shut Engine OFF, but leave pressure gauge connected. Come back for more readings every 2 minutes for about 5 times. Note how much pressure system is losing with engine OFF over time. It should not drop below 42 PSI after a 10 minutes delay.

Shut off @ 13.48mins Dropped to 48 PSI
After 30 minutes (No picture) @ 45 PSI


A drop of pressure with engine stopped (test 2-3 OR in last test) could be caused by a bad fuel-pressure regulator OR a leaking/stuck fuel injectors OR a cracked/leaking fuel-hose inside tank.
 

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