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Ok

I've checked timing several times to ensure piston 1 was at TDC. And as the pictures indicate its in time and has not changed at all since the valve adjustment/bucket swap.

Cam chain sprockets are both vertical pointing straight up. And the slots in the end of each cam shaft are horizonal as outlined in Clymer manual pages 90/91.

My only concern is that I checked the clearance on the Intake/exhaust valves again and 3 Intake valves are tight.

Intake
Cyl 1 - 006/006 - Good
Cyl 2 - 006/005 - One Tight
Cyl 3 - 005/006 - One Tight
Cyl 4 - 005/006 - One Tight
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The intakes valves clearance is a minor issue that should be done soon (before a lot of mileage is added). But, given you are only 0.001 (1 thoushand of an inch) below specs, this is not enough to cause bad engine behavior. In their design / specifications, BMW has already planned a margin of safety when 0.006 is specified as a minimum setting - however you want to avoid running the engine at 0.004 intake valve clearance - thus 0.005 is the wake-up call to act soon before it goes tighter (they alway go tighter with wear / mileage on these "brik-engine").

Hence, to find cause of your problems, you will have to keep looking or double checks all your previous work. As suggested earlier by H96669, the Motronic relay exchange is a good probability and fairly cheap item to try.

Do you have a GS911 to read fault codes and check all parameters in "real-time" (engine running on center-stand) ?
 

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Discussion Starter #102
Ok Thx

No, as previously reported I've got the Motoscan app that does read live data, report, provide codes and test Hall Sensor, Throttle Actuator.

I'll go ahead and put the valve cover back on and try the Relay.
 

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As long as you can relate relay position in the manual the complete electrical box covers(2) assembly does not have to come off.

Just remove the rear screws and pry off the rear, that exposes the relays.
 

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Discussion Starter #104
Swapped the relays (Horn with Fuel Pump) and no difference seen.

Idle seems ok.

Ran Motoscan app and it is reporting no error codes. I can provide stats but can report here the rough O2 Sensor reading when warm. 91 - 830.

Went and got bike inspected so I can perform test runs.

Bike is running on highway poorly - Remixed me of my Boxer and warmed up is backfiring continually.

I cannot explain it!!!

Video format .MOV not excepted and cant upload :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter #105
Things have turned worse. The TVA is not extending when the ignition is turned on and when it did start would not idle - RPM to zero without holding throttle open. And bike running very poorly for start up.

Now bike will not start (This is a 1st).

Pulled TVA and ran test per instructions provided.

PIN #1 and PIN #2 - 9 Volts applied to them moves piston in and out.

Resistance between these 2 pins is low - 700 Ohms

PIN #3 and PIN #4: These 2 pins serves as a ON-OFF switch.

You should see continuity when the piston end is compressed. When the throttle is manually opened (by the rider) the piston end is not compresses and the switch is open (no continuity). Note performed this test with TVA "on bench) and piston completely closed (but no pressure on piston) and do not have continuity. Once I press on piston (make internal contact) I do get continuity (this is correct - no?).

When there is pressure on the piston, this creates a ground for the signal from the Motronic on PIN #3, as PIN#4 is linked to the system ground. Only use an Ohm Meter function on these Pins . See above - This would seem to indicate that the screw on my TB arm is out of adjustment (was not touched though).

Also note that when OBD hooked up and Motoscan app running - error code (1506) has returned for idle switch (TVA) which I had previously reported.

I did carefully open the TVA and internally nothing appears to be wrong.
 

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Things have turned worse. The TVA is not extending when the ignition is turned on and when it did start would not idle - RPM to zero without holding throttle open. And bike running very poorly for start up.

Now bike will not start (This is a 1st).

Pulled TVA and ran test per instructions provided.

PIN #1 and PIN #2 - 9 Volts applied to them moves piston in and out.

Resistance between these 2 pins is low - 700 Ohms

PIN #3 and PIN #4: These 2 pins serves as a ON-OFF switch.

You should see continuity when the piston end is compressed. When the throttle is manually opened (by the rider) the piston end is not compresses and the switch is open (no continuity). Note performed this test with TVA "on bench) and piston completely closed (but no pressure on piston) and do not have continuity. Once I press on piston (make internal contact) I do get continuity (this is correct - no?).

When there is pressure on the piston, this creates a ground for the signal from the Motronic on PIN #3, as PIN#4 is linked to the system ground. Only use an Ohm Meter function on these Pins . See above - This would seem to indicate that the screw on my TB arm is out of adjustment (was not touched though).

Also note that when OBD hooked up and Motoscan app running - error code (1506) has returned for idle switch (TVA) which I had previously reported.

I did carefully open the TVA and internally nothing appears to be wrong.
1) About your question on TVA pin 3-4: if you see continuity (Ohm function) when piston end is compressed, AND also no-continuiny when piston end is released, then this part is working fine.

2) QUESTION: when you applied power to Pin 1-2 to extend and retract TVA , did you measure both to match my tutorial spec lengths as shown in picture ? (36 mm retracted and 44 mm extended)

3) I cannot relate or convert error codes from MotoScan as they do not match what dealer and GS911 will give - code 1506 does not exist as far as I know. Normally only these 3 are known fault codes for TVA (1285 , 5381 , 5382).

KEEP IN MIND that is always possible (although not common) to have a a good TVA unit in bench testing, but a bad contact or bad signal. The 4 Pins connectors could have bad / damaged contact or a wire conection damaged somewhere between TVA and Motronic ECU.

IF I WAS ON-SITE, my next step (to go from simple to more complex troubleshooting) would be to:
- remove Motronic/Fuel-pump fuse for 25 minutes (or more) to clear memory and fault codes

- meanwhile with any small battery (5 to 12 volts) lower TVA to its lowest piston postion using Pin 1-2 while it is unplugged from main harness.

- plug a Voltmeter at end of 4 pins female connector of TVA (harness side) to read voltage signal at moment the ignition willl be turned ON. Positive of Multimeter on TVA Pin 2 , negative on Pin 1.

- Turn igniton ON (in starting configuration: kill switch off, side-stand UP...). Within a few second you should see voltage go up from 5 volts to a max of 12 volts on Pin-1-2.

- Turn Ignition OFF. Remove Motronic fuse again for 25 minutes to clear memory one more time.

- Assuming you saw voltage increase on prior test, connect TVA to main harness BUT do NOT attach it to Throttle assy.

- Turn igniton ON and check if TVA piston will extend to full length - unless you press tip switch at end it should go to full extension. Immediately turn ignition OFF.

Note that this last test will leave a fault code in memory as the system expect that the tip switch at end would have been triggered if TVA was mounted on throttle-body assy.

OF COURSE, if these tests do not give result expected, there is a need to go further in tracking incorrect signal between ECU or TVA. It is also possible (but no very common) to have an intermitted fault inside the TVA unit.

The TVA is only an idle control motor and should not stop the engine from working normally above idle - it will not cause hesitations or lack of power higher in RPM range. In worst case, for testing purposes, it is possible to cheat the system temporarely by increasing the main idle screw to a certain position and run the engine without a TVA. Obviously this is not a long term solution as there is no idle-screw position that will satisfy idle at 950 to 1050 RPM in both hot and cold engine state.

27855
 

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Discussion Starter #107
1) Yes there is continuity (Ohm Function) when piston is removed from bike (bench) and fully compressed but only if I push in on the piston when it has been brought all the way in. Should it show continuity without pushing on it with my finger? I figure that correct since TB arm would be adjusted to push on the piston (like my finger).

2) QUESTION: when you applied power to Pin 1-2 to extend and retract TVA , did you measure both to match my tutorial spec lengths as shown in picture ? (36 mm retracted and 44 mm extended)
2) I took the measurements again and have attached them. 36mm fully closed and 43.57(?) fully opened.

3) Correct Motoscan is using OBDII Codes List and "Autocodes" list P1506 BMW

P1506 BMW - Idle Speed Control Valve Open Solenoid Control Circuit Signal High
P1506 BMW Possible Causes
Faulty Idle Air Control (IAC) valve
Idle Air Control (IAC) valve harness is open or shorted
Idle Air Control (IAC) valve circuit poor electrical connection (This you describe in #3).

4) IF I WAS ON-SITE, my next step (to go from simple to more complex troubleshooting) would be to:

a) Removed Motronic/Fuel pump fuse for over 25 minutes.
b) Lowered the piston position with 9 volt battery while unplugged from bike.
c) Plugged voltmeter into 4 pin connector (female/harness side). Positive V/Ω side of voltmeter to PIN #2 and Negative COM side of voltmeter to PIN #1. Turned on IGN switch to on position with kill SW off and Side stand UP and observed.
Voltage - Voltage went up to 4.54 and stopped right there. Test Failed. Stopping here!!!
d) Will have to check wiring between TVA and ECU and see what's up there. Tank off "again" - :cautious:
e) Understand TVA will not cause the backfiring and appearing to run on 2 cylinders but I did have let you know.
 

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a) Removed Motronic/Fuel pump fuse for over 25 minutes.
b) Lowered the piston position with 9 volt battery while unplugged from bike.

c) Plugged voltmeter into 4 pin connector (female/harness side). Positive V/Ω side of voltmeter to PIN #2 and Negative COM side of voltmeter to PIN #1. Turned on IGN switch to on position with kill SW off and Side stand UP and observed.
Voltage - Voltage went up to 4.54 and stopped right there. Test Failed. Stopping here!!!


d) Will have to check wiring between TVA and ECU and see what's up there. Tank off "again" - :cautious:
e) Understand TVA will not cause the backfiring and appearing to run on 2 cylinders but I did have let you know.
Your 4.54 volts values got me gack to my previous notes on this. I had done these tests and measurements on a TVA "live" on the bike a few years ago - I forgot one important detail when I posted earlier text - sorry...

Please redo these test based on these exact notes:

When ignition is turned ON, normal behavior for the Motronic-EFI is this: system will send 4 volts to pin 1-2 to move piston forward If-and-only-if there is no continuity between pin 3-4 (piston arm is not pressing on throttle-bodies arm). When Motronic can sense that the piston end-switch is compressed, it will send 11 volts (to move faster) until a certain TPS value is reached for proper idle (or fast idle if engine is cold). This TPS value will vary depending if engine is cold or if engine is already warm (higher throttle opening when engine is cold).

1) FIRST, retract piston manually to low position, THEN connect TVA to harness (in your hand) , Turn ignition ON, check if movement of piston goes to full extension (it should as there is no corresponding TPS increase AND nothing pushing on tip end switch) THEN immediately turn igniton OFF.

2) Redo same check above, but this time about half way during piston extension, push on tip end switch with your other hand to see if extension of TVA will continue. Turn ignition OFF immediately when done.

3) Retract piston to LOW position. Redo same check as in (1), but this time start by bolting the TVA to throttle-body-assy BEFORE you turn ignition ON (do not start engine). With a cold engine, you should see the throttle being opened about 5 degrees from mechanical idle stop.

Ideally, if MotoScan has same feature as GS911, you should be able to see "live" values of TPS and Engine-Coolant-Temp to confirm if TVA is pushing far enough. In GS911 these sensor values are available as soon as you turn ignition ON (even if engine is not running).


FINALLY, before you start a complex process of testing wiring between TVA and Motronic, I would always check simple stuff first. In my experience with 40 years or wrenching on motorcycles, it is quite often simple stuff like a loose connector pins. On the harness side of TVA, you have female pins: if one is damaged, corroded / dirty OR not tight enough to make contact with male pins of TVA, you can have bad signal.

I have seen an isolated case where one pin of a given connector (TPS, TVA, fuel-injector) had backed off into its plastic holder. Normally these small pins are held / jammed into their plastic holder by a small metal barb that will click and jam each female connector into place. Very difficult to catch a case like this unless you carefully examine each connector from inside (normally on main harness side). To give you an idea of this, see this YouTube video and JUMP AHEAD at position 18:00 minutes into it.

WARNING: If you can stand the bad language of this BMW independant mechanic, listening to the whole video will teach a few tricks about troubleshooting a modern EFI BMW (from simple to complex - from most probable to least - from less time consuming to more). I DO NOT agree 100% with his testing sequence (order / priority / logic) , but he is covering a lot of ground in this video for an R1150R having intermittent issues. Similar BOSCH Motronic EFI as a K1200RS but of course only 2 separate trottle-bodies (instead of a row of 4).
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Discussion Starter #109
LOL Thx Sailor

Language doesn't bother me and I've downloaded that video to keep. Actually watch the whole thing and I see what your saying about the female (and Male) pin problems.

I've taken a picture of both ends of the TVA (male/female) and they look really good).

Performed test as directed:
1) Yes piston moves fully out when IGN turned on.
2) Yes piston continues out fully when pressure on tip with my thumb.
3) Mounted TVA on post and hooked up Motoscan. When IGN turned on:
a) Set Motoscan to capture
Engine Temp Voltage - 3,32v
Engine Temp (C) - 24.6°c
DKP (TPS) - 4.20°c
b) watched adjustment screws on TB and saw them move (at least 12°).

Went ahead and started bike (FYIU - I had gotten the bike running since we last talked without TVA mounted (by hold my finger through TVA hole and pressing on TB arm).

Anyway started bike and rpms rose immediately as you'd expect to maybe 1500 RPM but immediately fell to near zero (but did not stall). RPM's recovered but to only between 700/750 RPM (Where they remained with cold engine). Could smell bike running extremely rich. Idling rough but not backfiring (Not sure where that's coming from).

Only other thing to mention - I did have an O2 Sensor code come back (which I reported earlier in the string (Code 0170)

P0170 is a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) for "Fuel Trim Malfunction (Bank 1)".

And the possible causes: Obviously these are all potential problems we've been addressing with you here.

Intake air leaks
Faulty front heated oxygen sensor
Ignition misfiring
Faulty fuel injectors
Exhaust gas leaks
Incorrect fuel pressure
Lack of fuel Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor
Incorrect Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) hose connection

Read more: P0170 Bmw - Fuel Trim Bank 1
 

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Discussion Starter #110
OMG - Found out what was causing the backfiring (extremely Lean condition).

Rode around the block again and soon as bike got warm, bike slowly started the backfiring. I got worse as I drove back home.

When I pulled back into garage backfiring continued and realized Exhaust was red hot. Glowing Red and leaving mark (bluing) on exhaust. Immediately turned bike off and started worrying.

While letting bike cool down pulled and checked injector connections which all looked good... (?)

Pulled the plug wire then plugs and could see they were "red" on tips. Cyl1 and Cyl4 the worst. Picture shows Cyl1 looking ok but I rubbed with my finger.

Pulled out my cheap borescope and probed the cylinders. Nothing "melted" at least. :(:oops:

Don't dare reinstall plugs or run it anymore unless I can understand why it would be running so lean.
 

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OMG - Found out what was causing the backfiring (extremely Lean condition).

Rode around the block again and soon as bike got warm, bike slowly started the backfiring. I got worse as I drove back home.

When I pulled back into garage backfiring continued and realized Exhaust was red hot. Glowing Red and leaving mark (bluing) on exhaust. Immediately turned bike off and started worrying.

While letting bike cool down pulled and checked injector connections which all looked good... (?)

Pulled the plug wire then plugs and could see they were "red" on tips. Cyl1 and Cyl4 the worst. Picture shows Cyl1 looking ok but I rubbed with my finger.

Pulled out my cheap borescope and probed the cylinders. Nothing "melted" at least. :(:oops:

Don't dare reinstall plugs or run it anymore unless I can understand why it would be running so lean.
Interesting.... HOWEVER this begs a few question based on earlier posts in same thread.
There are only so many things to cause a very lean condition.
Based on previous posts, I had assumed you already:
1) install new Injectors -or- older Injectors were cleaned / checked by professional
2) You had checked for intake air leaks AND replaced all rubber parts below Throttle-bodies
3) You had checked and measured for proper fuel-pressure (in-line on pressure side hose)

If indeed the problem seems to be worse on cylinder 1-4 then another high probability is related to either:
A) Coil (one half of the coil pack serves 1-4 at same time, the other half serves 2-3)
B) Hall effect sensor plate (one half serves 1-4, the other half serves 2-3)

Could also be high tension wires leading to plugs, but a series of misfires or weak spark would not always be a constant lean condition. These older Motronic-ECU are not so smart to measure separate bank of rich-lean compensation for 1-4 or 2-3 as there is only a single O2 sensor for all 4 cylinders.

TWO Items that are fairly easy to try, is to fake a defect with most probable sensor AND see how much behavior will change - I have done BOTH items below myself many times to check behavior and read related GS911 codes.
(1)
Engine-coolant-sensor: the most important sensor for mixture and injector control (after RPM + TPS mapping). When you unplugged the engine coolant sensor (connector under seat), Motronic-ECU will default to assuming the engine coolant temp is 80 celcius (a warm engine close to middle white line on gauge). In addition, it will run the radiator fans full time as soon as you turn ignition ON (precaution measure for fans failure to avoid overheat).

Mixture and injector time will be based on 80 celcius warm engine so do not expect the engine to be easy to start if engine block is very cold. In such case, warm up engine with coolant sensor connected for a few minutes , then shut ignition OFF and unplug sensor for testing.

(2) Oxygen sensor: this is not used during start (when cold) and neither is it used when accelerating / opening throttle hard. The K1200RS engine will run fairly well with this unplugged, but richer than normal (default map for any given RPM + TPS). However, we are trying to see if the one you currently have might give false info to Motronic - thus we unplug it from system temporarely.

ALWAYS make sure you have igntion OFF while connecting or disconnecting a sensor. Better if you clear ECU memory with fuse between each tests.
 

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Discussion Starter #112
Just a felling but it is about the possibility that the HALL Sensor is bad. That would explain what appears to be a Timing issue and also not feed the injectors fuel correct? Remember I had the 4 bare wires where the SOY covering had come off and I repaired with shrink wrap.

I did preform the test with the homemade battery/diode but test was very short (only a revelation or so) especially when bringing up to temp with the hair dryer.

Will do/redo the test above after installing new water heater. :(
 

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Just a felling but it is about the possibility that the HALL Sensor is bad. That would explain what appears to be a Timing issue and also not feed the injectors fuel correct? Remember I had the 4 bare wires where the SOY covering had come off and I repaired with shrink wrap.

I did preform the test with the homemade battery/diode but test was very short (only a revelation or so) especially when bringing up to temp with the hair dryer.

Will do/redo the test above after installing new water heater. :(
Also recheck the simple stuff - items that many take for granted and come back to bite them after a long search for elusive non-essential components:
1)
make you sure all 4 injectors conectors have same color wires. In the past, a few have installed the Pulse-vent-valve connector (same shape, different color wires) as an injector connector.

2) make sure all 4 injectors connectors make good contact and are tight (male to female). You can listen to each injectors fast "clicks" when running. Can be done with long-thin screwsriver - plastic side to ear. BUT much better with mechanics stethoscope.

3) make sure all 4 spark-plugs high tension wires have good undammaged contact into coil and also into the spak-plug caps. If you do not have a spark strength tester, you may want to test into somewhat dark condition for each spark-plug grounded to cylinder head while being cranked over (only one at-a-time is better and safer so as not damage the coil).

4) remove the 3 pins coil connector and check for bad conctact or corrosion. While you are there , check to Primary and Secondary resistance (see 1st and 2nd photo below). These coil pack have been very reliable on all K1200RS-LT, but always double check - this is easy anyway.

5) make sure the hall effect plate position is correct (static timing). Even without a precise dial-gauge into piston top to match shop manual specs, you can make a "good enough" check with slow crank rotation and a check crank alignment on right hand cover (see my last 2 photos below). Do NOT remove the front timing cover - ONLY the right hand cover is needed - this one is easy to seal back and the rubber gasket can be reused. You are either listening to fuel-pump trigger as a signal OR using a test light rigged into hall effect (positive of Voltmeter to orange wire - negative to battery ground).

I did not include a photo of crank position for the 2nd Hall effect signal for cylinder pair 2-3, but you can pretty much guess what it should look like based on the Cylinder 1 photo.

I KNOW that most will only check the basic open/close marks furnished by the factory as a rough check of static-timing (see last photo). The problem is not so much that is very rough approximation - but mainly that they never actually confirm if indeed the hall effct is being triggered at 180 intervall relative to each TDC pair (1-4 and 2-3). If something is wrong with the internals of the plate sensors OR the rotation wheel behind had been incorrectly installed, then you need to confirm as I have described earlier (or using a LONG dial gauge into spark plug hole).

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The Hall Sensor was suspect from the very beginning.That's why I pointed the OP toward the test procedure.
But it seemed to me then that he glossed over it rather quickly.So I stopped posting and went in let's wait and see mode.Long wait?

Jean's pic of the timing plate at the two arrows shows the slight offset between the halfmoon openings in case and plate.Lining up the edges is 0degrees so that offset shown in the pic is 6BTDC.

Providing one can mark the rotor at the right position as I did timing can be checked easily enough with the very same LED/battery setup used to check Hall Sensors.
 

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...
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Providing one can mark the rotor at the right position as I did timing can be checked easily enough with the very same LED/battery setup used to check Hall Sensors.
In normal condition , when the previous history or good running is well known, I agree with you: all you need is your own previous marks on the plate - assuming bike was running great when the original marks were done.

HOWEVER , in a case of complex (or strange symptoms) remote troubleshooting like we have here , I do NOT assume anything and always suggest to go back to checking everything that could be related to given symptoms. Thus , I suggested to even check the Hall-effect signal of both sensors in the plate based on known crankshaft / piston position at 180 deg apart.

If one has a GS911, then it is not needed to hook into Orange wire or listen for fuel-pump signal. The Gs-911 has proper screen interface to give you the internal signal as you rotate crankshaft.
 

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Timing plate marked by me at 6BTDC (and 30).Install LED sensor test light,rotate engine,LED goes ON at 6BTDC.If not adjust timing.

Measurements should be there, same as timing a K100:
IMG_20201115_100534.jpg
 

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Timing plate marked by me at 6BTDC (and 30).Install LED sensor test light,rotate engine,LED goes ON at 6BTDC.If not adjust timing.

Measurements should be there, same as timing a K100:
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Pierre,
Have you found a place easier to reach than the electrical junction box to hook your positive wire shown in previous picture (to catch the Hall signal for your Led) ?

BMW Electrical diagrams (CD of SLP 2.2) seem to imply that Pin 10 of the Diagnostic connector might be usable for this - same signal as the one going to fuel pump relay trigger. I will have to check this in quiet moment this winter...
 

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Interesting, I am a bit dislexic w/diagrams so was using the sensor connector.Not sure if I want to remove the cover to check?🤔 That would cost me a gasket,>$10.00 and break my >2yrs streak of not buying anything from BMW.😃

But fuel pump trigger? Isn't that the 2-3?
 

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Interesting, I am a bit dislexic w/diagrams so was using the sensor connector.Not sure if I want to remove the cover to check?🤔 That would cost me a gasket,>$10.00 and break my >2yrs streak of not buying anything from BMW.😃

But fuel pump trigger? Isn't that the 2-3?
When you say: "so was using the sensor connector"
do yo mean the Hall-Effect end connector in the electrical junction box ?
Since it is a pain to have to remove the fuel tank only for this, I was looking at alternative / quicker method to get the trigger signal.

If indeed Pin 10 of the diagnostic connector is from fuel-pump trigger, then it should trigger at 180 deg for both 1-4 and 2-3 (based on some earlier tests I have done with rear wheel rotation listening for pump trigger).
 

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I doubt the OP needs a timing check yet.Most probably from the early signs a HallSensor going bad.Going then but not well tested? Gone now could be easier testing?An oscilloscope would be nice?Clymer page 290.

I rotated the plate quite a few degrees either way with engine running,from 0 to 10BTDC and never misfired.

Replacing the HallSensor providing the marks were done on the OEM ? Take references between old/new and mount exactly in the same position.

But just in case as I think some of the K100 stuff may be missing here are the marking specs.The 6BTDC mark is the only one needed.

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