BMW K1200, K1300, and K1600 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 46 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I just purchased a 2004 GT with 29,000 miles a little over a week ago. The tires on it were trash, so I did not do much of a test ride- did hear something in the rear end that seemed 'off', but still felt it was a good enough deal to buy. So I did.

My first thought was final drive bearing- got it home, drained the final drive to look at the fluid- it was very clear. Too clear.... I wondered if metal had been flushed by the previous owner. So, I put fresh fluid in, and drove around a bit. There is something going on. Wish I could describe it well- strong vibration in both foot pegs, and intermittent sound of something rattling in the rear end. At times, the bike is smooth, and then hit a bump, and it carries on for a while. There is a bit of a 'jerk' at very slow speed when I grab the brakes- as though something is moving- I just don't know what.

With about 100 miles on it, I parked it, and started taking it apart- drained the final drive fluid again- very clear, no signs of any metal or pieces. Rotates smoothly, no crunch or unevenness. No oil on wheel or around seal. I did feel a small amount of lateral movement at the pivot bearings, and really thought that would be the issue.

I will point out that the driveshaft looked factory fresh- had some lube on it, but not much. No oil in the swing arm at all. Very, very clean. I could not detect any movement in the swing arm laterally, vertically seemed very smooth.

I replaced the pivot bearings with the Rubber Chicken Garage Bushings, and thought that would take care of it. It didn't. Absolutely no difference whatsoever. I was very disappointed. So, parked again, took the wheel off, thinking maybe I didn't torque the bushings enough. However, still very solid.

The only other abnormal item is the shock- it's an Ohlins, and I have the receipt for a rebuild about 900 miles ago. I played with settings, and when I made it as stiff as possible, there 'might' have been some improvement. I might have imagined it, as well. The connection on the swing arm is rough, though. As though the shock doesn't fit properly, and has worn away some material at the swing arm. The bushing isn't in great shape, but it's not awful. I marked around the mounting point, and took it for a ride, thinking that if there were movement there, the marks would rub off. No indication of movement.

So, I'm at a loss. With the amount of noise, I would think that if it were the final drive bearing, there would be more evidence. I cannot imagine what I'm experiencing is normal for this bike. When I was at speed, there felt like a small amount of drift in the rear end. It did not feel stable.

Any advice? Does anyone think it could be the final drive bearing, despite no evidence? I just don't know where to look at this point. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

·
Registered
2009 BMW K1300GT
Joined
·
372 Posts
Did you spin the final drive with the driveshaft disconnected? This will tell you if the bearing is going bad. You will hear a scraping sound and feel a little resistance on rotation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
Vibration in the pegs would point at the front U-joint.That is the one that showed wear first on my K1200RS.And actually broke at rather low milleage on my R100GS.

Wear at the shock mount is I'd think somewhat normal.I made some thin nylon washers out of plastic ice cream buckets lids to attenuate that,not perfect as the road grits still get in and the shock rotates a little under compression and wears into the swingarm but the washers help.
 

·
Registered
2009 BMW K1300GT
Joined
·
372 Posts
Vibration in the pegs would point at the front U-joint.
That was my second thought. I had a vibration in the pegs just before the driveshaft broke on my 1200RT, but it did last 109K miles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Hmm... I thought about pulling the swing arm off yesterday, but didn't want to chase a problem without cause. Guess I'll pull the swingarm off and take a look. Thanks for the advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
Probably a good idea pulling the swingarm if just to repack the bearings.

But I do pull the driveshaft without removing the swingarm.Every year as I have greasable U-joints so has to be done.

Big pair of Visegrips on the end of the DS,then insert a pry bar into the bearing journal hole,buffer the threads with a rag then stick pry bar into the Visegrips and a good yank.....driveshaft should come out.

Reinsertion is a little tricky but a length of dowel rod to extend/hold the DS ,a rag into the U-joint to prevent it from flopping around and then guide it in.Then a good whack on the dowel to engage the circlip and lock the DS in.

Pull rag out then proceed at installing the final drive.U-joints have to be installed "in phase" for longevity so front DS and rear knuckle have to be paintmarked to phase them correctly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
"I will point out that the driveshaft looked factory fresh"

Is it the right driveshaft?

Are the driveshaft Snap-Rings doing their job? Are they even present?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
519 Posts
Probably a good idea pulling the swingarm if just to repack the bearings.

But I do pull the driveshaft without removing the swingarm.Every year as I have greasable U-joints so has to be done.
..
....
Pierre, I taught that you were, like me, removing the SwingArm every year to inspect/grease the Clutch Slave.

In the past when my slave had less than 25,000 miles (about 40,000 KM) I would not bother. However, knowing the history of these Magura slaves failure and the consequences, I do it almost every year as preventive measure.

The slave that I have currently is the same I replaced when I did the clutch O-Ring failure job at 54,000 miles (approx 90,000 KM).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Well, I wish I had a diagnosis, but it doesn't seem to me that I do. I pulled the swingarm and driveshaft, but do not see anything painfully obvious.

I checked movement (again) as I removed things, and everything felt solid- no indication the final drive bearing is bad, pivot bushing seems fine, swingarm bearings have no play.

I pushed, pulled, and rotated the u-joints as best I could, and can't feel any movement or stickiness. There is a little bit of grease coming out from the bearings, but nothing that seems unusual.

The only other thing that I am considering is from Bronco's comment- the snap rings are present, and there is a little bit of play from them, but nothing that seems odd. However, the driveshaft part number is not what is listed in the part's fiche. The number on the driveshaft is 26 11 7 660 350. The listed number for a 2004 K1200GT is 26 11 7 663 759.

I can't find any reference to the number listed on the driveshaft with a few minutes on Google, so I have no idea whether it is different, or what the difference might be. Any great ideas on where to look for the part number? I searched Max's and a couple of sites with the OEM parts fiches, to no avail. I also searched random bikes in an effort to find the part, but didn't find anything.

Again, any suggestions are welcome. I have attached a few pictures, in the hopes that more experience from the group will see something that I don't. As always, thank you for the input.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
Hum....Pinion bearings in the final drive? Might be time to open the final drive and inspect it?Easy to open them up and pulling the crown gear out does free the pinion shaft from the gear pressure and then pinion bearing could be checked for play/roughness.And gear wear marks could give you an idea if the lash is correct.In any case opening them up is rather easy.A little heat cover can be tapped right out and the axle/crown gear will remain with the cover.

Small axle tapered bearing could be bad also?Or loose on the shaft?Not such a rare occurrence I have 2 final drives at home with that problem and both have good big bearings.

It has been a while but I seem to recall a part number change for the driveshaft.The old number may have been dropped off the list by now.I'd have to be home to confirm with my spare which has I think a similar build date code.

Won't be until the mid/end of September til I get back home.In the meantime and for Jean,my slave cylinder is at 250,000 kms.Inspected and regreased every few years but only coincidentally with other jobs requiring swingarm removal.Good grease,compatible with all seals....I wouldn't want to do like the GS guy who grossly overlubed his new slave bearing with some petro based grease that rather quickly migrated to the slave seal and destroyed it.

Good greas....Superlube with Syncrolon,compatible with all types of seals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Yet again, no definitive answer.

As for part numbers, in the parts fiche I am looking at, the K1200RS has the same drive shaft as the GT, so if there was a change in part numbers, they share the same specs.

Bearing in the final drive looks great, moves great, no debris. Roller bearing looks good.

No marks on crown gear or bevel gear. There is a very tiny amount of movement in the bevel gear. Enough for a very tiny clicking, but when trying to video it, I could not distinguish between movement of the entire final drive, and movement of the bevel gear. If this were the cause, I can't imagine there wouldn't be more evidence- marks on the bevel gear, leaking around the seal, something- the noise while riding was loud, the vibration obvious.

Not sure where to go from here. I'm getting frustrated- there aren't any more moving parts behind the transmission to check...
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
A small amount of gear lash is normal.Spec is in the manual and measurable if you tool up like I did and I know that mine is right at mid spec.We did at one time check it at the wheel and the somewhat normal measurement was around 1.75" back & forth "play"at the edge of the rim.

There are a few other things that make them bikes vibrate of feel loose in the rear end.

General vibration can usually be traced to dirty fuel injectors.That out of balance reverberates all through the bike.

Loose/worn clutch parts such as the splines will also give a rather unhealthy/loose feeling to the rear end through the driveline.

Transmission?I can't tell exactly what could have happened with that used transmission someone gave me had the cracked main shaft dampener I found inside it totally felled apart but nothing good I am sure.Bearings were still smooth but considering the amount of metallic chaff in the oil,that transmission was about to grenade at only 60Ks.

Suspension setups? I wouldn't crank up them Ohlins too much and certainly check if the spring rate is right for you.Sag spec is around 35-40mm and has to be set before any fine tuning with the other adjustments.DO NOT crank up the rebound dampener to the point where the suspension will pack.

Running them Ks in gear on the centerstand with suspension fully extended and one can feel the U-joints binding as you increase throttles.Driveline angle when fully extended is very close to the recommended max angle at which U-joints operate smoothly.DO NOT remount the driveshaft with the U-joints out of phase.

My K was showing signs of a slowly failing driveshaft.Vibrations at around 120mph but none below that yet.So from previous experiences with failing shafts I took it out,mounted the yokes in the bench vise and used my large pliers to check for axial play.And found some.Hence the source of my vibrations at 120mph.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sailor

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Thank you for all of the advice.

I'm going to check all the moving parts one more time, and put it back together. I'll also read more about setting up shocks, and do the sag measurements to try and get it right. I did mess with the two adjustment points on the Ohlins, but not prior to the first time I noticed the noise and vibration. We'll see- I don't like not having a clear resolution.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
My relationship with this bike is... challenged. I really want to spend some time riding, but....

I put everything back together, checked movement in all pivot points, and everything was fine. I reset the Ohlins to factory settings, measured sag, and took it for a quick spin, and all seemed ok. Still a clunk in the rear, but it seemed more consistent with bumps in the road.

I decided to purchase a used rear shock from ebay. My plan is/was to put it on and try to isolate the problem. Put the old shock on, behavior changes, at least I know it is related to the shock.

So, I rode to work today. I have a 30 mile commute each way, through two towns. Plenty of stop and go, about 20 miles of open road. I had previously noted what I referred to as surging, but dismissed it for learning the bike. Today, it was pretty noticeable. By the time I got to work, it was doing it in first gear, and it dawned on me that it isn't surging- it's clutch slippage. Pretty bad.

When I left work, I got on the bike, and a very sizable cloud of black smoke spewed from the exhaust. I rode a '77 Goldwing for several years as a daily driver, and am familiar with a horizontally situated engine smoking a bit on occasion. This seemed like a lot more smoke than that. Combined with the clutch slipping, I didn't ride it home.

So- I don't see a way around taking it apart to inspect clutch and seals. Am I overreacting, or being sensible? I want to spend some time on this bike, but am having some serious trust issues....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
I'd keep working on it.Maybe as a winter project? Takes some time to find the best price on parts and then wait for them.Usually much cheaper overseas.

Cloud of smoke? May be the injectors sticking open and dropping fuel into the combustion chamber when parked.Drippy injectors will be "out of balance" and that makes for a rather buzzy engine.And surges at low speeds.Combine that with the potential vacuum leaks they are known for and that will reverberate through the driveline.And I am speaking with experience here.

Clutch well.....dry clutches can be destroyed rather quickly if used improperly.They'll skip at first and one may not notice but that slams the disk/shaft splines against each other wearing them out.That lash will make one think there is something wrong with the rear end.Mine was pretty clunky by the time I replaced the clutch pack.By the time I got to that there were hardly any splines left on my clutch disk and the transmission splines were compromised.Clunks were rather noticeable and although resetting the suspension did help that wasn't the cure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: flyingkiwi

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
U-joints have to be installed "in phase" for longevity so front DS and rear knuckle have to be paintmarked to phase them correctly.
Could you elaborate on the meaning of "in phase" please? I have looked through service manual ('08 K12GT) and did not notice such reference.
Sorry for silly question and thank you.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: koshak

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks for your replies, and thoughts about the bike. I'm not giving up yet. Fortunately, I do enjoy working on them as well as riding. And, I have a backup (or two), so it's not like I'm not able to ride. Just frustrated at what seems like so many problems out of the gate. I'm not happy about the climbing investment to have a ridable bike, but I'm not too deep into it yet.

I've really wondered how much is in my head- but the physical evidence is present. The previous owner put ~13,000 miles on the bike in the past year- pretty well documented. So, the bike hasn't been sitting. Seems like a lot of problems (and pretty fortuitous timing to get rid of the bike...).

So- I do need to look at the clutch, correct? I'll have all of the plastic off, so might as well clean injectors. I should have used shocks on hand in the next day or two- not sure if it is worth the effort of installing them and taking the bike around the block or not. I probably won't. I'll just keep them on hand for when I get the bike running again.

I'll have some time this weekend, but not a lot. Not sure how much I'll be able to get disassembled, but I'll keep posting here. If there are any good threads anyone wants to point out, I'll be doing some searching and reading. My plan is to have my hands on everything before I put together a parts list. At this point, I don't expect to be riding the bike for a month or two, and although I don't want it to sit, I'm not going to rush to get it back on the road.
 
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
Top