Is it as easy as this to make ‘history’, or do we need to correct it ?Part 2 of 2

3457 Views 7 Replies 1 Participant Last post by LOCUS, Oct 15, 2005

LOCUS

Discussion Starter · Oct 15, 2005 (Edited)

Transferred post:Orginator:Locus

Part 2 of2, The Proof
Is it as easy as this to make ‘history’, or do we need to correct it ?

Disclaimer, please read:
Mr.Norman Hossack and Mr.Claude Fior, these are the only real names that will be presented here. The topic of this is to have History told correctly not to in any case make accusations of a personal sort at all, to anyone. As a further information, Mr. Claude Fior, died some years ago in a Plane crash, this is not in any way a purpose to disregard the name of Mr. Claude Fior, nor his family and I humbly ask readers to have this in mind when reading this. (Info: referrals from ‘open’ web-sites will have to make their own ‘disclaimers’ if needed.)

The Proof

The Editor of Motorcyclist asked Mr.N.Hossack above, and I took the opportunity to grab it

“If you have evidence that disaproves this, we're all ears.”

Here you go, my letter to Mr.N.Hossack:

August 23, 2005
Norman.
I have made some search at The Net, and have actually found some information conserning Claude Fior, and ‘his’ invention’..

I will add some extracts here and also add The web-site where I found these:

1 quote:
“SonAuto/ Fior.French motorcycle engineer Claude Fior made radical custom designed front ends for TZ250s and 350s before turning his hand to manufacture an aluminium frame for the Sonauto TZ500 around 1980/81 (Michel du Maine and Phillipe Roche) http://www.tz350.net/aftermarket_frames2.net.htm#sonauto

2 quote:
Again an original suspension, had to the regretted Claude Fior, that one. While Claude Fior engaged bikes equipped Grand Prix of motors Honda, this machine, that participated in the Bol d’Or, was equipped of a diverted Yamaha of the 1100 X'S. Prepared to Japan, under the impulse of Sonauto that had implied itself in the operation, it delivered the power of 130CH. The framework possesses in his rear party a suspension "cantilever" and is interrupted to washing, the built in aluminum bearing the suspension doing to participate the motor to the rigidity of the body. The said pitchfork, not at all the most remarkable one of this bike, is constituted of two superimposed triangles, the bases being articulated on the framework and the summit bearing the direction axis. The suspension properly said being assured by an alone central shock absorber. This that strangely recalls a certain one "inspired invention" carrying the soft name of "duet to get up". There would it have had a sort of "pumping" industrial? Nothing not at all loses itself, nothing does not create itself, all transforms itself, said the philosopher... with a certain one any cynisme. Note a last interesting point: THE wheel AXIS is maintained by an eccentric one allowing regulating the hunt of the direction(Translated from French) http://www.moto-histo.com/Coupes2005/Coupes2005.htm

3 quote:
When they attack themselves to the bike in 1980, the Construction Workshops Siccardi already have a long experience in the domain of the mechanics, since they under treating for big brands automobiles for which ones they make precision pieces as trees to cams or vilebrequins.

Reemerged Siccardi, for his part, made his first motor in 1936 and this is by passion, despite its 60 years, that it envisions to turn itself towards the 2 wheels.

His project is ambitious of by the conception of his bike: As one often accused the preceding French attempts to borrow their motorization be at the automobile, be abroad (today, Cagiva and Laverda use motors Suzuki and that does not shock anyone. ..), Siccardi decides to make his clean one three cylinders of 1.000 cm3, announced for 150 ch. The latter is rather massive because of the general conception on the part entrusted cycle to Claude Fior - the initiated themselves some will be noticed visible the so special pitchfork - that foresaw a motor carrier. Actually carrier, would have one to say, since the framework summarizes itself to two structures to the before and to the back. The in demand goal - the lightness - is attained since the had not body that 172 kg on the balance.

His ambitious project in his planning: started in July 1980, the first prototype is presented in October 1981. The continuation of the events foresees an engagement in competition (endurance) from 1982, before passing to the production phase as early as 1984. Period from which one envisions 5000 bikes on 5 years. But the project will be killed in the egg as early as 1982. In fact, the F. I'S. M. has just converted the regulations into limiting the tests to 750 cm3. The project is not then more competitive, more cohérant if one lowers his displacement.
This is a beautiful dream that collapses! (Referrance: http://www.moto-histo.com/france/fr4/fr4.htm)

Actually I think I have found the ‘missing-link’, Norman….

If you take a look at the first “quote” http://www.tz350.net/aftermarket_frames2.net.htm#sonauto and refer this to the same web-site referring your Front http://www.tz350.net/aftermarket_frames.net.htm#hossack
You will se that Mr. Editor(XXXXXXX), probably even his ‘source’ XXXXXXX(author of article), has made their misunderstanding at this point of reference. Referring Your Front on these bikes, made in 1983 and Mr.C.Fior’s made in 1980/81.
Could this be the ‘clue’ ?????
And by this totally disregarding Your development since 1974.

Ref this : HOSSACK 1 (The story behind the first bike)
Designed in the mid 70's from ideas worked out with a bent coat hanger nailed to a piece of wood, the first parts were made just to test the function. Later Norman found wheels in a scrap yard and made it movable it could be pushed down a hill to see what it would feel like. Much later a friend bought the project an engine, a Honda XL500. It took some cunning but Norman managed to squeeze it into the frame and made it a runner. It ran first up and down the roads of the Slough trading estate late 1979. It worked!!
From a known web-site ?????

(refferance: http://www.hossack-design.co.uk/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi?Top=designtop&Main=design)

Note!
I have also added a .pdf.file(link: http://www2.i-bmw.com/photo/albums/userpics/13393/motorradfahrwerke.pdf 3.07Mb) with some interesting topics, wonder if you have seen it? Take a look (pages 15,16 and 17) and you will see that Mr. C.Fior’s design is not similar to yours as the Steering seems to be different.

Here are some extracts from the mentioned pdf-file

Mr.N.Hossack’s answer to me:

August 25, 2005.
Hi Kjell
I took some time to print out the pdf. that you sent me and discovered the mistake.
This document from IKA has a picture of the FIOR system and it has a date of 1976.
This is wrong I saw this machine at Silverstone and still have the pictures of it and that was 1986.
The engine was a Honda 3 2stroke and that engine did not exist in 1976.
Interesting.
Norman

Comparing this with what I discovered above:

ref this quotation: Actually I think I have found the ‘missing-link’, Norman…. see above..

And with these facts, I would say that the article presented in Motorcyclist , July 2005 issue,
is a totally wrong presentation in “The History of Motorcycling”
and should be made Public with a retraction in the above magazine, Motorcyclist !

A further info and last comment by Mr.N.Hossack:

“The idea came in 2 phases. The idea of wish-bones was easy and that is what I did in 1975 but making a steering system was the difficulty. The handle bars could not be attached to the upright because that followed the road. So the bars had to have their own pivot. But connecting the bars to the up right was the real hart of my work. I theorized about many ways to do this the difficulty was keeping the bar pivot in line with the steering pivot. I built a test fixture. But please bear in mind my main interest at the time was my engine design which took much time and effort. The test fixture was just to test ways of doing the steering must have been 1977/1978. I found a way and the links you see today on the BMW were born. I eventually built a frame around the test fixture and bought some wheels form a scrap dealer to test the feel. Even before the wheels I showed it to people at a bike show at Alexander Palace early 1979. After I showed it to a friend he bought me an engine XLl500 Honda late 1979. By 1980 it was a runner at Brands Hatch. 1983 it won a championship 1986/87/88 it won the single cylinder championship. HOSSACK1 was a star.

To summarize wishbones easy, steering mechanism the real invention and that’s the system you enjoy today. Fior never had what I would judge a commercially adaptable steering mechanism. He tried several systems and by 1989 had abandoned the wish bone system anyway in favor of a floating steering head.”

Take care
LOCUS http://www2.i-bmw.com/pp/data/3005/3393smail.gif?9624
Oslo - Norway
K1200S/2005

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #2 · Oct 15, 2005

Trabsferred post, Orginator: Catatafish

Great research. Awesome story.

"The engine was a Honda 3 2stroke and that engine did not exist in 1976.
Interesting. " I love that part.

So Kjell, have you written Motorcyclist yet?

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 15, 2005 (Edited)

Transferred post, Orginator: Locus

No I have not....
wanted just to tell you all, the story..of how some 'high-up' journalists with reputation, could alter History...or Think they can do it...without a proper research.... it's totally disgusting that they are allowed ....
And my Main, was to get Norman Hossack back in the History books as he properly deserves....
What will be the bottom of this, I dont know yet....just wanted You all to know.

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #4 · Oct 15, 2005 (Edited)

Transferred post, Orginator: Catatafish

There's no doubt in my mind now.

Chalk this up to other historical FUBARs...

Lincoln freed the slaves
Christopher Columbus discovered America
Chrysler minivans throw children out of the rear hatch

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 15, 2005

Transferred post, Orginator: kl3640

Cat, I'll take your bait:

1) Abraham Lincoln most certainly did free the slaves legally via the Emancipation Proclamation, in the states that were in rebellion against the US government. The question is: What is meant by "freed." True that freeing slavery was far from his primary interest, and that the EP itself did not physically free the slaves - but it provided the legal grounds for the abolition of the institution of slavery and and for black people to be free of slavery legally, not just physically because they escaped to the North and because Northerns chose not to re-enslave them. If anything, the real myth is that the Civil War was fought over slavery. It most certainly was NOT fought over slavery and Lincoln's interest in writing the EP was to make the war seem as though it was more related to slavery than it was (probably to further prevent the European powers from siding with the CSA); however, Lincoln's EP did legally (as recognized by the USA, not the CSA) end slavery in the States that were in rebellion against the Federal Government. In the end it may have been the formality required to recognize physical reality and to create the incentive for future runaways, but in so far as slavery was a documented and organized institution (as opposed to simply physical reality), the EP acted to end the insitution with as much effectiveness as any other non-physical entity had any effect on slavery (i.e., the 3/5ths compromise, etc...). Paraphrasing what others have written, "Lincoln did not have the power to end slavery in the rebel states, but he did have the authority with respect to the Federal government [and the power, so long as the North went on to win the war eventually]."

2) Columbus did discover America - just not first

Neither did Leif Ericson. There were brown skinned people living here for a long, long time before - perhaps having crossed a frozen Bering Straight, or having come North over land from South/Central America after ocean voyages from the Eastern Hemisphere...noone really knows for sure.

3) The minivans don't throw kids out the windows - irritated parents do

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #6 · Oct 15, 2005

Transferred post, Orginator: kl3640

I hope that you plan to submit this evidence to Motorcyclist, since they're last response was so trite and lacking in evidence to support their claims. The basically ignored your first letter and the enclosed evidence, and simply stated that they were "right," without and backup.

Now you have them cornered. You should submit all of this research to them, and if they don't respond appropriately, you should submit the entire body of research to organizations that have influence in the motorcycling community and that advertise in Motorcyclist (such as BMW, the AMA, etc...) Money talks, and if they feel that their advertising dollars could be threatened, they might actually respond. They should be ashamed that truth and honor alone aren't motivation enough to correct the situation and prevent faulty research from making its way to the presses in the future.

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 15, 2005

Transferred post, Orginator: stroker

makes me think about people saying that honda is the first to put impact bags on their goldwing's
i remember readind that bmw had tested that system about ten years ago and the results where negative cause when the human hit's the bag with a certain force ,he is bounces off the bag into air and then he is hurt when he lands down.
in the end he is as much hurted as if he had direct collision from the front of the bike.

some of you might correct me but i beleive that it's more than ten years ago
so if nobody brings back the past story ,people will beleive only the latest.

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LOCUS

Discussion Starter · #8 · Oct 15, 2005

Transferred post, Orginator: kasperwing

thanks Locus and GOOD JOB!!

I will not renew my script with those scoundrels !

Holy internal combustion, I love motorcycles!

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