BMW K1200, K1300, and K1600 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 48 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone tried to add an extra steel plate ???I am going to try to add an extra steel plate at the very end of the clutch pack...
Any one tried anything similar ??Im thinking instead of the anti judder crap and that other spring...,, 1 steel plate could work ..
Its sad that BMW doesnt take the responsibility of admitting they screwed up and made shit clutch baskets !!

..I see a bit of room to add a 2nd spring as well...I have done that on other bikes to add a strong spring ....Taking the spacer out and adding another spring I think might work..Ive built many 1/4 mile race bikes and those are a lot of the tricks that I have used on many bikes in the past .. .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Hi Bill C from I BMW site. The guy to ask is 4hundredfour. I contacted him last night (he resides in England) and asked him to come over to the K Bikes forum. If he does, he is the gold standard rebuild and tech guy for our clutches. He rebuilt my K1200R basket and fitted the Barnette clutch. My clutch basket is quiet as a church mouse and the clutch no longer has the old bad BMW clutch issues.

Very happy with his work!

Bill C
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for info..I would love to pick his brain...So I added the extra steel..It literally made this an awesome clutch ..No clunk quiet as hell and shifts perfectly ...Heres the bad ..Being I lost the extra travel in the spring it goes passed the springs strongest point and and doesnt apply enough spring pressure now ..So now the next step is to machine down both sides of the basket ..To make room for the extra plate ..Or take out the spring spacer which would almost give me some of the extra steel clearance I need ..

Barnett clutch seems to be a little bigger than stock so it makes a little issue there as well ..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
conclusion to fixing the clutch

Understand most of you doing a clutch change will notice that your outer basket clutch plate has worn down and has scraped up the basket...My steel plate idea originally was to stop the judder and crappy engagement ,,but when I saw how badly my basket surface was adding a steel plate over the surface wear was the only way to fix a bad basket surface ...or goto a machine shop and have the surface cut down,,but that would add to the problems of the stack height further ...So this was the cheapest and easiest way to go ..

The anti judder spring and plate was BMW's way of trying to fix a bad stack height and they failed miserably ..

So for a quick fix I took out the spring retainer seat out ..Its the round wire steel that goes in between the diaphragm spring and the outer basket... .So the results are amazing ..The clutch grabs like hell..Stack height is better than original... ..I believe when they developed this clutch the whole issues were in fact the stack height being too short thus making the spring in a position of not having full tension on the plates causing not a full force engagement ...That would cause a judder all day long and premature wear ...My bike does not judder the slightest bit and I am running 15-40 oil no less ...No oil getting the the 1st plate was a bit of a problem so I drilled a hole to fox that issue but not getting full engagement will wear and judder and clutch trust me ..

The basket is legit only off a half of a steel plate thickness ..Not much but is a lot when u are dealing with stack heights ..

I will take this clutch out and inspect my spring seat to see how badly it wore out ..When I inspected the original spring and seat it didnt seem to show really any wear at 50k miles ...So Im not so sure that it will show any significant wear ....

So u have 3 options

1......add a steel plate from ur old clutch and take off spring retainer ..
2. Add a steel plate and take that plate and have any machine shop mill it to 50% of the thickness ..
3. Add steel and have your basket milled down 50% of the original steel plate thickness ..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
I among many others closely read everything Bill Sykes (4hundredfour) posted to the ibmwr site. He seems to have great depth in the BMW and other clutches (specially compared to myself who know nothing).

pumacorp, would like to see pics of your solution with some explanation how/why it works. You could have a going business if you find an effective solution to the clunky K44 clutches, specially if you're closer to me in Honolulu, Hawaii.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
I have just had my clutch reworked by John Sykes. (4hundredfour) and fitted it yesterday. My 2008 K1200R has 104000km and the clutch sounded like a Ducati dry clutch at idle. John machined the clutch basket,fitted new springs made to his specs, fitted a new set of steel and friction plates and centred the lamellar pack. I won’t mention the cost ‘cos that could change depending on circumstances. John advised that my clutch was just about to loose all drive but his work still cost less than a BMW clutch set with the same old problems. I did buy a k13 thrust adaptor (pushrod) with the extra groove for increased oil flow to the clutch. During the process John answered many questions, keeping me fully informed. My first ride was amazing. No rattle and a smooth progressive take up. No clunk from neutral to first or first to second. It felt as though my gearbox had been rebuilt. Because of the clutch components he uses he is able to add an extra steel and friction plate. His work is amazing so I have included his email should you wish to contact him. Check out his videos on YouTube
mailto:[email protected]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I didnt take pics

I can easily fix any of these clutches ..The only problem is I am in NJ and shipping would be too expensive ...I will try to make a video in the future to help other people out and avoid spending tons of money when they dont have to ,,..Barnett addressed the issue slightly but not enough ..They did thicken the plated a tad and made the stack height a bit better ,,they were just off slightly and thats where my half plate comes in or full plate and no spring retainer ..This is a quick fix to those who arent daring enough machine shop parts etc ...There are tons of people who own BMW bikes and dont have money so I am here to help those people ...BMW bikes used are very affordable and anyone can own them ...So that negates someone commenting with "if you. cant afford a BMW dont buy one " Cause these bikes arent far off of the pice of jap bikes ..



I among many others closely read everything Bill Sykes (4hundredfour) posted to the ibmwr site. He seems to have great depth in the BMW and other clutches (specially compared to myself who know nothing).

pumacorp, would like to see pics of your solution with some explanation how/why it works. You could have a going business if you find an effective solution to the clunky K44 clutches, specially if you're closer to me in Honolulu, Hawaii.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
John Sykes. (4hundredfour) is the man to go to. I did this mod about 2 years ago because my 2007 K1200GT had a terrible judder. I had already drilled the extra oil hole and my basket was still in good shape so John sold me just the matching anti-judder spring and plate. The results where fantastic !! No more judder , smooth clutch engagement and better overall clutch feel. John is a wealth of knowledge and a great guy!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
I too had John rebuild and improve my clutch. For the first time in many years, I am now enjoying my bike. Johns work is amazing.

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
John Sykes (4hundredfour) posted videos of his work on our (and Vstrom) clutches on the i-bmwr forum. Reading this thread got me wondering how to get back to them.

Good news: found 'em without too much pain.

His username on youtube is/was "sharealike1" so search 'em up using that keyword, sieve out the stuff that's inapplicable, and you'll have a master class in BMW K12 and K13 clutches.

The first one I found is at

I was thinking to edit this post and make a chronological list of his videos, but once you can find one, I think you'll find them all. It might be good to watch them in chrono sequence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
As I understand you, an extra steel is being added next to the hub. The change in stack height would change the Belleville spring in its travel. Like you say past it’s designed maximum point, these types of springs are progressive. With a change in stack height you could counter this by changing the posts of the pressure plate. Washers could be added that were the same thickness as what you have increased the stack by. The spring would be in it’s designed position.

That said, there is likely now a problem at the other end of the hub. With all the plates on the hub and the pressure plate removed, take the friction plate on top off. Looking at the steel and how much it is possible to move and still be fully engaged with the hub. It’s not much more than the thickness of a steel. The clutch slave has about 2mm of throw, about the same a a steel thickness. So it looks like by adding another steel, this could push this last steel off the hub.

That retainer ring the Belleville spring rides on is to save the hub. Every disengagement of the clutch causes the spring to spread and vise versa. That hard steel will eat right into the hub and then block the oil draining slots.

Some photos would make what you are explaining a good addition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
there is no steel..

The steel stays within the limits cause its on the other side of the hub..The bottom I guess u can call it or looking from the outside would be the outer part closest to you when its mounted .. .. ...No where to go ...The last plate is a friction plate on the other side of the hub ..Thats where if there were a steel there it could jump out of the hub..So the only plate thats above the stack height is a friction plate which lays in the outer hub and can never slip out ..



As I understand you, an extra steel is being added next to the hub. The change in stack height would change the Belleville spring in its travel. Like you say past it’s designed maximum point, these types of springs are progressive. With a change in stack height you could counter this by changing the posts of the pressure plate. Washers could be added that were the same thickness as what you have increased the stack by. The spring would be in it’s designed position.

That said, there is likely now a problem at the other end of the hub. With all the plates on the hub and the pressure plate removed, take the friction plate on top off. Looking at the steel and how much it is possible to move and still be fully engaged with the hub. It’s not much more than the thickness of a steel. The clutch slave has about 2mm of throw, about the same a a steel thickness. So it looks like by adding another steel, this could push this last steel off the hub.

That retainer ring the Belleville spring rides on is to save the hub. Every disengagement of the clutch causes the spring to spread and vise versa. That hard steel will eat right into the hub and then block the oil draining slots.

Some photos would make what you are explaining a good addition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Also the right way to do it would be to goto a machine shop and take off 1.5 mm off one side of the hub ..See most of the time the pressure plate is shot and needs machining anyway cause the last plate and 1 st plate wear out and scratch the pressure plate face .. ...Which is one of the main reasons I put an extra plate as well so u dont have machine shop costs ot have to buy the expensive part of the hub..

..I will check it after a 1000 miles and see what no retainer spring did to the hub ..

In any event all the clunking and sticky clutch drags vanish with the extra plate ..Along with Judder is gone as well ...

This mod is good if u have groves in ur basket cause it moves the plate off the groves ..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
I’m still trying to get ahold of this. You say you have ridden with this, so it must work. Does the extra steel ride on the hub with the ‘anti-judder’ set ridding on top of that new steel? The other question is about the spring. You say it goes past it’s most effective setting with the extra steel. So you have found the OEM setting to have not sprung the spring enough by about .5 mm?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
About the anti-judder setup. I asked a lifelong BMW tech about this. The way I see it this is really a mask for a problem, uneven take up of the clutch plates. He said, ‘Welcome to mass produced bikes.’ I do appreciate that this setup can contribute to the feel of the take up. It delays the final lockup of the plates.

BMW did dimension the set up properly. With roughly 2mm of slave throw and seven steels and eight frictions, that 2mm divided by the number of spaces required for disengagement is .125mm between each plate. Ever wonder why the friction zone at the lever is so small? I have measured the thickness of the friction plate and the height on the anti-judder setup. The difference is about .250mm. So in its uncompressed state, it does not take up more than its share of the total space the slave provides.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
No anti judder crap is taken out ..I find that to be useless ..I believe BMW realized the stack height was wrong so they added that crap on to add to the stack height to try to pretend it wasnt stack height it was the judder spring fix ... ..It was either that or do a recall and we know they werent going to do that ...They have been playing with K1200r owners long enough to let the owners fade away..Like adding the larger oil channel etc etc...telling people to use 5-40 ..Then all of a sudden a new basket design comes out ffor the k1300 and still no recall ...

So the extra steel is by itself ...No anti judder ..No extra friction plate ..

I was playing with different combos and the extra stock steel with the barnett clutch pack seems to be perfect when the spring retainer is dropped off ...The spring is by far its strongest ..So much so that the clutch is a pretty hard pull by quite a bit with a slight lighten at full clutch lever pull...Which is where u wanna be ...

At the track we had experimented so much ...So real world results fair much better than what is supposed to be an engineering marvel ...Which is usually a engineering miscue ...

Ill get the exact numbers I have them written down in the shop...

Also understand my alternatives that are almost free if you use an old steel and no retainer is for people who cant afford the machine shop work..Its quick easy and cheap for now ..We would do things like this for the track cause it was a bout winning not about longevity necessarily...In any event they are cheap fixes for fast results ...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
i also had a slipped clutch and changed to barnett and did some mods. but i did not remove anything. i still got the steel wire and the 2(?) steel springs (anti judder). and its much better but...
if i understand you correctly i shall:
remove the steel wire.
remove the steel springs, anti judder
add an extra steel plate
then it will be great?

then i wonder one of the friction plates is adjusted for the steel springs. shall i just leve that there without the steel springs?
or shall i replace that friction plate with another one from my old set that is full size, can i mix an probablu original friction plate with the barnett set?
/F
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Where do you drill the hole for extra oil?

I am going to do the fix suggested. But I am not clear on where the extra hole should b drilled for the better oiling. Nor am I sure of the diameter of the hole. Can anybody help me with this? Thanks
 
1 - 20 of 48 Posts
Top