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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i feel more vibrations when i don't ad any aditives in the gas,
could it be that i feel something from the knock sensor that activates and retards the ignition?
when that occurs i feel less power.
up here in canada the best gas we have is like 92 of octane and bmw recommends 98 for this bike , so i began using some TORCO additives and some NOS power additives ,from there on there is no more vibrations and more power

how about you guy's?
stroker.
 

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According to the BMW book, the minium octane that the onboard ECU can handle is 95, optimum is 98, hence 92 is outside of what it is programmed to handle. We have both in Australia. I am surpised that in Canada you can not get any better than 92!
 

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I think you are talking a different octane rating?? In Australia, are you RON? In Canada (as the USA too), we are (RON+MON)/2. So, 98 RON would be about 94 (R+M)/2.
 

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In British Columbia, most CHEVRON gas stations offers Supreme PLus at 94 Octane - (RON +MON)/2. And CHEVRON has stations in most areas of the province. Other gas stations including ESSO, PETRO-CANADA and SHELL offer premium gas at 92 or 91 octane.

Being a former R1100S rider, I am "trained" to use the highest octane fuel I can get. My R1100S pinged on 87 octane. So I really do not want to find out what is the lowest octane that my K1200S will suffer.

My K only gets the best. I fill up with the "Good Stuff" at Chevron.

And if I can't quite make it to a Chevron, I usually only go to ESSO. And at ESSO, I only put just enough gas to get me to a Chevron. If I must fill up at ESSO, I always put an octane boost in the tank.

Regards,

Bruce
 

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brentboshart said:
I think you are talking a different octane rating?? In Australia, are you RON? In Canada (as the USA too), we are (RON+MON)/2. So, 98 RON would be about 94 (R+M)/2.
I see what you meant. You are correct, we use RON here in Oz, and that is what the Europeans use hence I believe the rating referred to in the handbook is also RON. The rough conversion table of these ratings indicate that your PON 92 should be similar to RON 96 (see http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html)
RON MON PON
90 83 86.6
92 85 88.5
95 87 91
96 88 92
98 90 94
100 91.5 95.8
105 95 100
110 99 104.5

Only one brand in Oz, BP, has RON98 (PON94), hence when too far from BP petrol stations, I occasionally have to refill using RON95 (PON91). One time when there was a maufacturing problem at BP that affected the availability of RON98, I had to use as much as 3 full tank refills of RON95 (PON91) in a row but experienced no problem at all with vibrations or knockings.

Tim.
 

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I can only get 93 Octane in the U.S., but the bike runs fine.

Regarding the vibes, Ken from Evoluzione mentioned something about this - his bike that he broke in on the dyno had no vibes, while some of his customers did have the vibes.
He put their bikes on the dyno and opened them up to redline and it solved the vibration
issue.
 

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sportrider said:
I can only get 93 Octane in the U.S., but the bike runs fine.

Regarding the vibes, Ken from Evoluzione mentioned something about this - his bike that he broke in on the dyno had no vibes, while some of his customers did have the vibes.
He put their bikes on the dyno and opened them up to redline and it solved the vibration
issue.
Two different issues here perhaps.

(1) The knock sensors should be able to cope with relatively low octane fuel. They will sense any pre ignition and retard the ignition until the pre ignition/knocking/pinging is gone. I guess there is always going to be some uncertainty as to the real standard of the fuel vs the sellers claim and the range of timing adjustment available will realistically have limits. Fuel with the octane rating of pen ink is always gonna have problems.

(2) The lack of vibration etc on the bikes that have been run up to full load raises another possibility. I run a Mitsubishi 4WD on Liquid Propane Gas (LPG) and gasoline. The engine is factory designed to handle this wide octane range of fuel and has knock sensors which work to eliminate any pre-ignition for either fuel. The LPG management computer generates a series of independent performance "windows" that it "learns" after initial startup and for a number of subsequent starts. To cut to the chase, the LPG guy said the best thing you can do for the computer is within around 10minutes of startup (the initial learning period) use full throttle/power. This gives the computer a max power/revs "window" or map that it can work up to and give the maximum adjustment range for the intermediate windows from idle to max.

I haven't been able to find out a great deal on the KS ECU but I suspect that it may need to be given a maximum power/revs window/setting for complete range and sensitivity for the ECU. Hence the fault free operation after a max dyno run early in the "learning" period. Perhaps the bike could be run in, the battery disconnected for a period of time which should delete the existing "learnt windows" then go out and show it some "discipline" with full on accelleration and max revs. For best results to incorporate the ram air effects maybe an 'under way' setting is better than on the dyno. This decision is no doubt going to be influenced by the ratio of brain to testicle capacity and the availability of a suitable "runway"

Waddyya think ??

Cheers
Lenz
 

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tatran said:
Only one brand in Oz, BP, has RON98 (PON94), hence when too far from BP petrol stations...
Hey Tim,

I thought Shell Optimax, Mobil 8000, Caltex Vortex98 and of course BP Ultimate were all RON98. Is that not right?

I've been using either BP or Mobil as they seem to make the bike run smoother than Optimax but it could be my imagination. Caltex Vortex98 is a bit hard to get but have used it and seems OK.

Cheers,
 

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Also found this on the web........

Octane rating:

The most important characteristic of gasoline is its Research Octane Number (RON) or octane rating, which is a measure of how resistant gasoline is to premature detonation ( knocking). It is measured relative to a mixture of 2,2,4-trimethylpentane (an octane) and n- heptane. So an 87-octane gasoline has the same knock resistance as a mixture of 87% isooctane and 13% n-heptane.

There is another type of Octane, called "Motor Octane Number" (MON), which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. Its definition is also based on the mixture of isooctane and n-heptane that has the same performance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 10 points lower than the RON. Normally fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.

In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the 'headline' octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON: but in the United States and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the "roaD Octane Number" or DON, or (R+M)/2. Because of the 10 point difference noted above this means that the octane in the United States will be about 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "normal" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 92 in Europe.

Romania is a supplier of "light-sweet" crude oil, which, when distilled, resulted in a gasoline with an 87 rating (DON).

It is possible for a fuel to have a RON greater than 100, because isooctane is not the most knock-resistant substance available. Racing fuels, Avgas and LPG typically have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher.

It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings burn less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. Using a fuel with a higher octane lets an engine be run at a higher compression ratio without having problems with knock. Compression is directly related to power, so engines that require higher octane usually deliver more power. Some high-performance engines are designed to operate with a compression ratio associated with high octane numbers, and thus demand high-octane gasoline. It should be noted that the power output of an engine also depends on the energy content of its fuel, which bears no simple relationship to the octane rating. Some people believe that adding a higher octane fuel to their engine will increase its performance or lessen its fuel consumption; this is false - engines perform best when using fuel with the octane rating they were designed for.

The octane rating was developed by the chemist Russell Marker. The selection of n- heptane as the zero point of the scale was due to the availability of very high purity n-heptane, not mixed with other isomers of heptane or octane, distilled from the resin of Jeffrey Pine. Other sources of heptane produced from crude oil contain a mixture of different isomers with greatly differing ratings, which would not give a precise zero point.

There, that should clear it up!
 

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Tuk said:
Hey Tim,

I thought Shell Optimax, Mobil 8000, Caltex Vortex98 and of course BP Ultimate were all RON98. Is that not right?

I've been using either BP or Mobil as they seem to make the bike run smoother than Optimax but it could be my imagination. Caltex Vortex98 is a bit hard to get but have used it and seems OK.

Cheers,
You are right there. Thanks for pointing it out. You guys over east are fortunate to have more options. In WA, Only BP sells RON98 (Ultimate). My opinion always is that BP makes higher quality blend than the others.

Tim.
 

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What do I think?

Lenz said:
Two different issues here perhaps.

(1) The knock sensors should be able to cope with relatively low octane fuel. They will sense any pre ignition and retard the ignition until the pre ignition/knocking/pinging is gone. I guess there is always going to be some uncertainty as to the real standard of the fuel vs the sellers claim and the range of timing adjustment available will realistically have limits. Fuel with the octane rating of pen ink is always gonna have problems.

(2) The lack of vibration etc on the bikes that have been run up to full load raises another possibility. I run a Mitsubishi 4WD on Liquid Propane Gas (LPG) and gasoline. The engine is factory designed to handle this wide octane range of fuel and has knock sensors which work to eliminate any pre-ignition for either fuel. The LPG management computer generates a series of independent performance "windows" that it "learns" after initial startup and for a number of subsequent starts. To cut to the chase, the LPG guy said the best thing you can do for the computer is within around 10minutes of startup (the initial learning period) use full throttle/power. This gives the computer a max power/revs "window" or map that it can work up to and give the maximum adjustment range for the intermediate windows from idle to max.

I haven't been able to find out a great deal on the KS ECU but I suspect that it may need to be given a maximum power/revs window/setting for complete range and sensitivity for the ECU. Hence the fault free operation after a max dyno run early in the "learning" period. Perhaps the bike could be run in, the battery disconnected for a period of time which should delete the existing "learnt windows" then go out and show it some "discipline" with full on accelleration and max revs. For best results to incorporate the ram air effects maybe an 'under way' setting is better than on the dyno. This decision is no doubt going to be influenced by the ratio of brain to testicle capacity and the availability of a suitable "runway"

Waddyya think ??

Cheers
Lenz


Man now I gotta go torch one after that


Then I'll do what he says


LMFAO
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
we still do not have explanations why i feel more vibrations when i don't add octane to my gas !
i can feel it everywhere ( bars,seat,pegs )
did anybody else notice this ?

if i wanted an expensive vibrator i would have bought a harley!!

stroker
 
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