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Statmaster
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Discussion Starter #1

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Hard to build a case for the "Cage".

It is hard to tell whether or not this intersection is controlled. It does not look like a controlled intersection.
But if it is...... Then the only way it is not the "Cages" fault is if he had an arrow to make that left. If he did then the Moto ran the light.
Looks to me like the vehicle failed to yield to oncoming which puts fault squarely on him. What have I missed? Without standing on that street corner it is hard to get all the facts.
MG
 

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Perhaps a better question is not who is at fault but could the motorcyclist have done anything to avoid the collision?

It seems to me that the car was in the opposing lane for a period of time before the cycle comes into view and yet there was no action to avoid the collision? Was the motorcyclist also not being very attentive? Again, maybe not legally responsible but might have been able to avoid the collision??
 

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Throttle Jockey
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Seems to me the bike was going way too fast for a congested road with cars turning into and exiting the gas station. I say rider's fault. I hope he lived.
 

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Clearly a failure to yield for on-coming traffic !

A speeding ticket for the motorcyclist ,, after the ambulance ride !
 

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no question in my mind it was the fault of the cage...plain and simple regardless the speed of the motorcycle. the cage is making a left hand turn across the bikes lane....by law the cage is supposed to yield right of way to oncoming traffic. the cage problably never bothered to look prior to making their left turn or they looked and didn't see the bike coming. these type of accidents happen all the time because people either don't look, look but don't see the bike or mis-judge the speed of the bike. i hope the guy is OK
 

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wellcraft said:
no question in my mind it was the fault of the cage...plain and simple regardless the speed of the motorcycle. the cage is making a left hand turn across the bikes lane....by law the cage is supposed to yield right of way to oncoming traffic. the cage problably never bothered to look prior to making their left turn or they looked and didn't see the bike coming. these type of accidents happen all the time because people either don't look, look but don't see the bike or mis-judge the speed of the bike. i hope the guy is OK
I wonder what the speed of the MC was and what the speed limit was? Speed does make a difference. If you are in a 25 mph zone and the bike is coming toward you at 75 or 80, then you see a bike blocks away and think there is time. Problem is the bike is going way faster than the posted limit, it gets there way faster than you'd expect.
 

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The cage driver reminds me of the blue hairs here in south Florida now. They drive without much attention to the surroundings. Because they use their turn signal, that gives them the right to do what ever they want. Unfortunately, that does not help the cyclist who was moving a bit fast. At a slower speed, he might have had a chance to avoid the cage.

Hope he is OK.

Yuan
 

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No doubt the cage is at fault - turning left across traffic. Hard to watch the many flips the guy does over the hood.......damn - hope he lived to ride again.
 

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I want to say it was the cage's fault but I can't say that it is 100% the cages's fault. It does look like the cage almost stops in the road BUT I can't ignore how fast the motorcycle was moving. For an area like that, he's going way too fast. On a road obviously wth stores and intersections, I take it slow and my eyes are scanning all over for someone to pull out in front of me.
 

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"Hey Y'all"
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I didn't do it ....

eljeffe said:
........Arguments have been made on both sides at other sites, so let's see what the gang here has to say.
At the risk of openig up a can of worms -- it's always partly the riders fault. Look how slow the car is turning. I'd guess the rider was looking elsewhere and didn't see the car until it was too late. Any one of us could have made the same mistake. (And I'm not saying the car driver isn't guilty. They made a poorly executed turn and didn't yield right-of-way. Being "right" isn't going to help the mtorcycle rider, though.)
 

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i think it's kind of difficult to judge the speed of the motorcycle based on the viewable footage. while it may appear the bike is traveling fast that may not be reality. in addition, we don't know the posted speed limit it could be 25 mph or 55 mph. the problem with many drivers is that they do not attempt to judge speed prior to executing a turn, enter or exit the highway. i was in my car once when some asshat pulled out in front of me from a side street. i was driving the speed limit but i still had to slam on my brakes to avoid rear ending him. since i out ranked the guy as soon as we pulled through the gate i asked the MP to pull the driver over. when i asked the driver why he pulled out in front of me his reply was "you had time to slow down". sadly many cagers have this attitude and it leads to numerous sometimes fatal accidents. in my case had i not been paying attention at the moment the clown pulled out i would have rear ended him at 50 mph.
 

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Statmaster
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Discussion Starter #13
Substitute the motorcycle with an overloaded dump truck with really shitty brakes and then ask who's at fault. Remember, a motorcycle travelling at 35 MPH will cover about 50 feet per second. So it I'm not sure how much over 35-40 MPH the motorcycle was going (assuming a city street like that has a speed limit of 35 MPH). As tenative and slow to move that car was turning left, I'm sure it would be ticketed for an illegal left turn and failure to yield the right of way.

BTW: I also feel that given what we see in the video, the rider probably was not paying attention. But I wasn't there, so I can't be the judge.
 

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Very sad, for everyone. Unfortunaely it appears both rider and driver were not paying attention to the road. A close friend of my younger daughter was killed this way last year. The law treated it like any-old-thing, giving a minor citation and $150 fine to the driver of the car.

You have got to watch out for yourself, regardless of how the law might rule.
 

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Looks can be deceiving. Numerous posts state that the motorcycle is going way too fast for the road. It looks like a fairly wide two lane road with a corner gas station. I am assuming that there is an intersection with a traffic control of some sort to the left out-of-sight since the non-caring asshole cages that didn't stop for the rider are stopped "waiting" for something at the end of the video. Thinking of similar roads in my area, the speed limit would be at least 30 mph, maybe even as high as 45 mph, but probably somewhere in-between. Let's be conservative and say that it is a 30 mph road. OK?

So, how fast was the motorcycle going? If you pause the video you will see that the motorcycle enters the picture on the left just after it changed to the 12 second mark and it hits at 13 seconds....a 1 second blip. We will use that as our base time.

How far did he travel during that time? Again, pause the video using the 4 door pickup as a measuring tool and you pretty much get TWO pickup lengths from the left edge of the picture to the point of impact. These type of trucks are typically about 18' - 20' long. Let's use the greatest distance for arguments sake since it will make his speed faster.

Doing the math, 40' in 1 second comes to 27 mph. Speeding? Unlikely!

Let's say that it was 3/4 of a second, then we get 36 mph. Speeding? Possibly, but not excessive. After watching many times, I feel comfortable that it was at least 3/4 of a second and think it was closer to a full second.

Others have said that the rider didn't react properly. Again, look at the video. The driver made his/her first indication that it was going to enter the bike's lane at the 12 second mark and he hit at the 13 second mark. One second to react. Think about it.

Now I don't know what was going on to the left. Was he trying to beat the light and accelerating? Did he have a green and the oncoming traffic had a red so it didn't bother him that the oncoming car was slowing down so much? Was he going too fast for the traffic conditions? I don't know and neither do you.

Any way you look at it, the cage did not yield to oncoming traffic. I don't think the motorcycle's speed had anything to do with his/her judgment. The driver just didn't see or register that the bike was coming for whatever reason. Guilty!

Randy
 

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Rider Journeyman
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Time....

htheater said:
Numerous posts state that the motorcycle is going way too fast for the road. ....

So, how fast was the motorcycle going? ...
...Was he going too fast for the traffic conditions? I don't know and neither do you.

Any way you look at it, the cage did not yield to oncoming traffic. I don't think the motorcycle's speed had anything to do with his/her judgment. The driver just didn't see or register that the bike was coming for whatever reason. Guilty!

Randy
Howdy Randy,

I have looked at the clip, again, and the cage "strays" over the line 11:09:10 and the m/c impacts the cage at 11:09:13

Again, not discussing "fault", but discussing "personal responsibility"; If a cage strays over the line on a two-lane undivided road under in the environment present on that clip, and the rider has three seconds to react, the rider MUST respond by slowing down and avoiding the collision.



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Hey Bill!

I respectfully disagree with your analysis. I see no indication of heading left at 10 seconds. Knowing what I know, I MIGHT be able to interpret the action at 11 seconds as straying, but, the turn isn't definite until 12 seconds.

Not saying you are wrong; just saying that is not what I see!

Randy
 

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How can you say that the motorcyclist should get a speeding ticket when he most likely was not speeding? Or don't you agree with the math or the assumption that it is a least a 30 mph zone?

Plus, unless there is strong evidence that the bike was excessively speeding, from the LEGAL standpoint, it simply doesn't matter. The cage WILL get the ticket for failure to yield.

Randy
 

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"Hey Y'all"
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semantics..

htheater said:
Hey Bill!

I respectfully disagree with your analysis. I see no indication of heading left at 10 seconds. Knowing what I know, I MIGHT be able to interpret the action at 11 seconds as straying, but, the turn isn't definite until 12 seconds.

Not saying you are wrong; just saying that is not what I see!

Randy
Tough call. While the car crosses at 11 and impact is at 13 ,the attitude of the car is "left" at 10. Hard to tell if there was a turn signal. Note that the car did brake, but too late. (The vehicle behind the car had to brake quickly.) I put the bike at a max of 40 mph based on 60 feet in 1 sec (60 feet estimated from left of screen to impact.). From numerous viweings it's still impossible for me to see if the bike was on the brakes at all. Note that the person at the pumps ignores the entire episode for 5 seconds!

I like Jeff's dump truck analogy. That would have solved this riddle!
 
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